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-   -   Cabal, Cartel, and Cliques (http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=18062)

Monty March 27th, 2013 06:27 AM

Cabal, Cartel, and Cliques
 
ca•bal (k -b l , -bäl )
n.
1. A conspiratorial group of plotters or intriguers: "Espionage is quite precisely it a cabal of powerful men, working secretly" (Frank Conroy).
2. A secret scheme or plot.
intr.v. ca•balled, ca•bal•ling, ca•bals
To form a cabal; conspire

cabal

n
1 a small group of intriguers, esp. one formed for political purposes
2 a secret plot, esp. a political one; conspiracy; intrigue
3 a secret or exclusive set of people; clique
vb , -bals, -balling, -balled intr
4 to form a cabal; conspire; plot


car•tel (kär-t l )
n.
1. A combination of independent business organizations formed to regulate production, pricing, and marketing of goods by the members.
2. An official agreement between governments at war, especially one concerning the exchange of prisoners.
3. A group of parties, factions, or nations united in a common cause; a bloc.


cartel n. 1) an arrangement among supposedly independent corporations or national monopolies in the same industrial or resource development field organized to control distribution, to set prices, to reduce competition, and sometimes to share technical expertise. Often the participants are multi-national corporations which operate across numerous borders and have little or no loyalty to any home country, and great loyalty to profits. The most prominent cartel is OPEC (Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries), which represents all of the oil producing countries in the Middle East, North Africa and Venezuela. Many cartels operate behind a veil of secrecy, particularly since under American anti-trust laws (the Sherman and Clayton Acts) they are illegal. 2) criminal syndicates like the international drug cartel headquartered in Colombia.

car•tel
noun \kär-ˈtel\
Definition of CARTEL
1
: a written agreement between belligerent nations
2
: a combination of independent commercial or industrial enterprises designed to limit competition or fix prices
3
: a combination of political groups for common action


A while ago Trevor Marriott stated there was a ‘Cabal/Cartel’ in Ripperology who was keen to suppress new theories and hold on to old ideas and theories within the field. This has since been surmised by Phil Carter recently and, albeit rather tongue in cheek, Tom Wescott. Trevor has, also recently, revealed that the reason his latest book was pulled by his publishers was because of a difference of opinion on the wording used to describe this Cabal. I must stress that I, personally, have assumed this revelation to be yet another of Trevors attempt at ‘humour’ however the fact he has mentioned it is an indication the idea still lingers with him.

Some months ago, maybe over a year now, I asked Trevor to name this Cabal, to provide evidence of its existence. Paul Begg also requested evidence as did a few others. Trevor failed to provide that evidence and I am still waiting.

It is clear by Phil Carters post below that this suggestion is still doing the rounds. That a ‘Cabal’ is in existence and its intention is to suppress new thinking and maintain old ideas.

Post - http://www.jtrforums.com/showpost.ph...1&postcount=23 Thread- http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=18050


Obviously cliques are formed, as Tom states, I do not dispute that. Friends meet and discuss the case as they have over many years. Robin Odell, Don Rumbelow, Stewart Evans, Keith Skinner, Paul Begg et al all have stories of get-togethers and they still meet up in a social context to this day. Having read their work, exchanged mails with a few of them, met and socialised with some of them also (as Im sure a few others who read this have) I have never seen evidence from them that they operate as a Cabal. In fact they all have assisted researchers and authors old and new alike. They have certainly helped me, encouraged, advised and gone out of their way for me. Sure I have had disagreements, with Stewart for example over the Gordon Brown photo. He laid his case and I stood ours. However, despite that, Stewart was kind enough to view the wall writing Photo we discovered and give his opinion. He and other certainly have never held back anything presented to them by others to my knowledge. There has never been a sign of a cabal/cartel from what I deem (no offence meant lads) as the old guard.

It is no secret that I also have a group of friends within the field. Rob Clack – clearly, John Bennett, Mark Ripper, Andrew Firth, Debs Arif and a few others (apologies for not mentioning you all) who have also helped me so many times that I have forgotten. I will be honest and tell you I have had my spats with some of these Guys, and we have discussed the case, theories and researchers from across the eras. We have agreed and disagreed on many many things during our debates over a pint or two and opinions across that clique has been mixed on theories and suspects. Some I agree with, some I do not. Again, this is not usual.

As stated, Trevor and Phil clearly feel there is a group of Ripperologists within the field who are keen to suppress new information and maintain the ‘old ideas’. Those in the first clique I state are the giants on whose shoulders we ALL stand on, irrespective on what you think of their research. They operated in an era where information was buried away and not so easily accessed as it is now. They dug and laid it out their for us.

The majority of the names I have mentioned in the second clique have bought new information to the field and, in some cases, provided a back bone for modern research. They have even assisted Trevor in some way with regards his work and books.

The gist of this post it to ask those Cabal/Cartel accusers to provide evidence that such an damaging organisation exists, what action they have secretly taken to suppress new information and who its members are?

Such accusations are extremely serious as they can be personally damaging to those inferred as a Cabal/Cartel member.

So come on, y’all quick to shoot your lip about a Cabal, suggest there is an organisation within the field who is plotting to keep information at bay, who is this cabal and what exactly have they done?

Put up or shut up.

Monty

Jeff Leahy March 27th, 2013 07:39 AM

Hi Monty

Its the claim 'New Information' that I'm having problems with.

Surely if such an organization as you discribe exists and they are surpressing informatiom, we need to establish what that information is and where it comes from?

Bizarrely Lynn Cates used a very simplar arguement to me yesterday.. 'If you have no new information' etc

So perhaps their is new information and I'm simply not aware of it?

I assume by 'New' we mean info not in the current A to Z ?

But perhaps this new information is actually old information that has since forth not been considered important enough to put in the A to Z?

Anyway if anyone out there in Ripper land can enlighten me about this 'NEW' information I have appeared to missed out on, I'd be most grateful.

But something tells me its simply another ripper Myth:tea:

Yours Jeff

Lynn Cates March 27th, 2013 07:54 AM

new
 
Hello Jeff. What I said was IN NO WAY similar. I said if you had some new information (ie, something new to discuss), then we could take that up. I see no point continuing to cover old material--""Tis," "'Tisn't."

To use the words of one of my old profs, "It's one thing to beat a dead horse; quite another to stick him in the blender."

I believe Neil (who will correct me if I'm wrong) refers to new information pertinent to the WCM. Personally, I wish there were more such information.

Cheers.
LC

Rob Clack March 27th, 2013 08:00 AM

Jeff, nobody is under any obligation to share new information. It is up to the finder to do what he pleases with it.
It surprises me sometimes that people expect and in some cases demand that new information is posted. I don't publish or post all the new information I find (that might surprise you considering only Rob House and Neal Shelden have found and published anything of note in the past 25 years).

The only issue I would have is if someone said on the boards that they have found something significant and then keep it to themselves. That would annoy me but then if I found something on Kosminski I would tell the world that I have and then keep it to myself.

Rob

Monty March 27th, 2013 08:06 AM

Jeff,

To clarify, by 'new information' I am referring to new suspects/theories/ideas as opposed to documentation or photos.

This thread is about the existance of Cabal/Cartel, not about new information regarding documentation or photos.
Monty

Jeff Leahy March 27th, 2013 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Clack (Post 195832)
(that might surprise you considering only Rob House and Neal Shelden have found and published anything of note in the past 25 years).
Rob

Blimmey Rob I've only qualified and apologuised three times

No grudges held there then..:jaw:

Rob Clack March 27th, 2013 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Leahy (Post 195839)
Blimmey Rob I've only qualified and apologuised three times

No grudges held there then..:jaw:

Did you? Must have missed those.

I don't hold grudges. I'm above that.

Rob

Jeff Leahy March 27th, 2013 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Clack (Post 195841)
Did you? Must have missed those.

I don't hold grudges. I'm above that.

Rob

Never thought you did Rob..

I'd meant to draw a difference on advances on suspect based ripperology, rather clumseley.

Having given it some thought I revised that statement and appologuised directly to you and Monty. Clearly factors at the murder scenes. Layout, lighting police patrols had a direct impact on Jack himself what ever his identity.

So whether that means you guys are Suspect Ripperologists I'll leave up to you. No wish to start a debate of samantic's

But if I make a miss take I'm the first to admit it.

Yours Jeff

Jeff Leahy March 27th, 2013 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynn Cates (Post 195831)
Hello Jeff. What I said was IN NO WAY similar. I said if you had some new information (ie, something new to discuss), then we could take that up. I see no point continuing to cover old material--""Tis," "'Tisn't."

To use the words of one of my old profs, "It's one thing to beat a dead horse; quite another to stick him in the blender."

I believe Neil (who will correct me if I'm wrong) refers to new information pertinent to the WCM. Personally, I wish there were more such information.

Cheers.
LC

It wasnt a question of Tis and tsint Lynn

The Statistics you were quoting were incorrect. You were trying to use them to aviod the facts. Instead of admitting you were wrong and that there were no murders similar to JtR's in whitechappel in 1887. You decided to blank me.

Which is your prerogative, but didnt do your argument much good

Yours Jeff

Lynn Cates March 27th, 2013 10:12 AM

still off topic
 
Hello Jeff. Another nice try.

If you wish to discuss statistics, please start a new thread.

If you wish to discuss Neil's thread topic, well, that's why he started the thread. But please leave me off and make no references to my arguments from another thread. Please respect Neil, OK?

Cheers.
LC


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