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James Maybrick It should really be called the Maybrick Dairy; where else would you expect to find a cash cow being milked?

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Old November 8th, 2012, 02:52 PM   #21
SirRobertAnderson
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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
With respect, the obscurity of the references only lasts until an easily available matching reference is found

However, until that is found it would be stupid to claim one exists

At a guess I would say at least one newspaper archive on microfiche equipment which had extensive details about the Florence Maybrick trial was available to the Diary author and contains all known references when coupled with the trial papers
Nemo, you have to go to America and then to the University of Wyoming's American Heritage Center and access the Trevor Christie collection to see any reference to Nurse Yapp calling Maybrick "Sir James". It's in some private correspondence there.

The "May" telegram was not introduced at the trial. It was mentioned at a deposition. That is not in the trial record; you would only know that by looking at the front of the docket. (It actually might have reflected well on Flo as she expresses concern over "May's critical condition". Mark Ripper believes it was composed but never sent. So it wasn't of much use to the Prosecution.)
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Old November 8th, 2012, 02:58 PM   #22
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With respect, the obscurity of the references only lasts until an easily available matching reference is found

However, until that is found it would be stupid to claim one exists

At a guess I would say at least one newspaper archive on microfiche equipment which had extensive details about the Florence Maybrick trial was available to the Diary author and contains all known references when coupled with the trial papers

It's still a mystery to me why the actual text appears amateurish and too stereotypical of the Ripper

It seems as though the amateurish Ripper author only referred to a good list of facts about Maybrick which he included within the text

Although you might expect the originator of the facts to be learned, it would be exactly the same case with someone who could well be Mike Barret who had located all the references in a library or similar and took them home with him, incorporating them into the Ripper story
Hi Nemo,

Have you ever seen the Monty Python sketch in which they do a 'Blue Peter' (a kids' programme) skit? In the skit, the 'Blue Peter' presenters promise to show everyone how to achieve world peace (or something equally implausible) and the route they recommend goes somewhat as follows: Discover a ground-breaking way to bring the world together and then announce it to the world.

I'm paraphrasing it very badly, but the point I'm trying (so badly) to make is that significant things take more than merely wishful thinking. What you say you imagine happened is simply implausible.

If it had been so easy (as you say) to locate all the references in a library or similar, why on earth did Harrison and Feldman independently spend huge amounts of money on research teams travelling the UK and America researching the diary? They should have just meandered down to a library or something similar where - whilst researching the most esoteric references in the diary - they could have simultaneously uncovered a ground-breaking way to bring the world together and achieve world peace.

I fear that your faith in the availability of the material required to pen the diary well exceeds my own.

PS Could you clarify whether you believe the diary was written by a serious crime historian or by an amateurish Ripper author as the sands of that view seem swift to shift, it seems to me?

Cheers,

Tom
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Old November 8th, 2012, 03:21 PM   #23
Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO
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As they must

That is why I mentioned the apparent anomaly in my mind between the knowledgeable Maybrick facts included and the amateurish nature of the Ripper related material displayed in the text and the physical construction of the Diary

I'm quite flexible on the authorship and fully prepared to give any theory full and hopefully unbiased consideration

I look equally carefully at elements of the Diary that supposedly prove its authenticity, as I do with apparent evidence that shows it is a fake

Overall, I think the evidence points to a fake

Trying to second guess the faker is often a fool's game

The Crawshaw quote for example might have taken years for a researcher to come across and link with the Diary, yet to the author its inclusion might simply be a matter of having a certain aged book at hand
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Old November 8th, 2012, 03:26 PM   #24
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As they must

Trying to second guess the faker is often a fool's game
So I wouldn't dream of indulging myself in such a game. Personally, I'm too busy trying to work out how I can buy him a pint in recognition of his extraordinary achievements (cf my original post?).
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Old September 12th, 2017, 11:49 AM   #25
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Bumping this old and worthy thread. Tom's essay deserves a read.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 07:14 PM   #26
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As someone who is somewhat 'on the fence' about the diary I've seen comments today on the Casebook about the 'amateurish' text of the diary. David Canter and David Forshaw however saw absolutely nothing incompatible from the type of person that the diary is alleged to have been written by. Both, I believe, would be considered experts in things psychiatric. Yes, as has been pointed out on the Casebook, we shouldn't just take 'experts' views at face value but equally we shouldn't dismiss them just because they are inconvenient.

What I just can't see as true is Mike 'Professor Moriarty' Barrett producing an 'amateurish' diary that fools documents experts, ink experts, graphologists and psychologists whilst arranging a conspiracy which must have involved the owner of the flat at Battlecrease and a firm of electricians. I might even add the 'forger' that 'forged' a watch that also fools the scientists.

I can easily accept someone believing the diary and watch to be forgeries. What I find difficult is the insistence of some to call them 'amateurish.'
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Old September 12th, 2017, 08:26 PM   #27
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David Canter and David Forshaw however saw absolutely nothing incompatible from the type of person that the diary is alleged to have been written by. Both, I believe, would be considered experts in things psychiatric.
As someone who knows a little bit about things psychiatric, I find Forshaw's contribution to the Diary of Jack the Ripper documentary distinctly underwhelming. I paraphrase: "He could have cut the pages out of the front of the book to demarcate his domestic life from his murderous career". Yeah, right.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 10:02 PM   #28
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As someone who knows a little bit about things psychiatric, I find Forshaw's contribution to the Diary of Jack the Ripper documentary distinctly underwhelming. I paraphrase: "He could have cut the pages out of the front of the book to demarcate his domestic life from his murderous career". Yeah, right.
Maybe the pages were cut from the front of the book because when it was bought at the used book store it had old family pictures that did not pertain to the future subject. (I can't help it, that is always what I think when I read about the pages that were cut out.)
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Old September 17th, 2017, 05:29 PM   #29
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Default Anachronistic phrases in the diary?

Hello Gary

Taken over from the Mike Barrett's Notes thread.
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What are the four?
One-off instance
Spreads mayhem
Top myself
Give her a call

Feel free to do a Google Books search on each phrase (don't forget to put them in quotation marks), filter and sort the search results by date, and note the earliest occurrence of each in print. Whenever I've done this, I've not found many, if any, occurrences of said phrases as used in the diary before the mid/late 20th Century. You can also count how often each phrase appears, decade by decade, to find some indication of the point at which they had become sufficiently "saturated" in common parlance for them to appear frequently in print.
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Old September 17th, 2017, 05:41 PM   #30
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Hello MrP

Again, taken over from 'tother thread.
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Obviously others have researched the exact same phrases as you and in all instances - bar none - could examples be found which confounded the assertion that they only could have been written by someone in the 1980s.
I was aware of "one-off instance" and "top myself" being countered, but I've not found the apologists' explanations wholly convincing. I'm not aware that the other two phrases have been similarly "defended", neither am I aware that any of the defenders have addressed the cumulative effect of having two or more potential anachronisms, or at least neologisms (from a C19th POV) in the same short document. They've tended to pick them off one by one, which isn't good enough; their combined presence must be justified. Furthermore, the question must be asked as to when these phrases had reached sufficient penetration into the popular vocabulary for one man (or woman) to have written them all down in one text in a short space of time.
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