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The Pros & The Cons Forum for presenting arguments for or against suspects...witness statements...whether or not one or more murder victims were Ripper victims...and a whole lot more.

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Old January 18th, 2016, 06:52 PM   #1
Anna Morris
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Default Who Led the Way?

It has been written many times that JtR's victims were soliciting and they led him to spots of their choosing to consummate sex acts. For a variety of reasons I rejected this idea quite some time ago, with the exception of Mary Kelly who must surely have taken a man into her room for immoral purposes. (Slight chance he entered on his own but she probably invited him in.)

A big reason I reject the women leading the way is because serial killing has a lot to do with control and it doesn't make sense to me that Jack would want to be led to a private area where the victim felt in control or possibly had a boyfriend or companion nearby.

I believe Jack chose places where HE felt secure and I have an idea that at least after Polly he chose places where there was LIGHT of some kind. Polly Nichols was an odd case, like she was just attacked and left on the street. One of the first men who found her said he didn't see any blood because it was so dark. Drawings of that area don't seem to show any street lights, etc. (I am aware that this man was probably Cross/Lechmere and he didn't have to see anything because he did it.)

In my thinking Jack acted out on Polly for whatever reason and thought he could do better and enjoy it more if he refined his actions.

We argue whether or not the next victim Annie was killed about dawn when the sun was beginning to come up. I have always favoured an earlier time but in considering LIGHT, it makes sense she was killed near dawn in a fairly open back yard.

I will always believe Broad Shoulder Man wanted Liz to go away with him and she said no, three times but not very loud. I think she knew him. Maybe he gave her some cachous (or not), and asked her to go with him. He even pulled on her arm. I bet he had a good spot picked out where there would be sufficient LIGHT but she wouldn't go. He couldn't kill her in the street and the yard was too dark. What I think happened is she retreated into the yard and he followed shortly and killed her so she wouldn't identify him. He couldn't do more because it was so dark. Deimschutz had to strike a match to see that it was even a body.

The attack on Kate was well choreographed, avoiding the police beats and near a gas light where Jack could see well enough to indulge himself more than before. (Personally, the area seemed too well lighted for a prostitute to choose it for a sex act.)

I also believe Mrs. Lewis' testimony about the creepy man, who I think was very likely Jack, asking her and her sister to follow him. In her inquest version the women ran away. In the Mrs. Kennedy version the two women followed him and he wanted to take one of them down a dark passage. Perhaps there was a lighted yard at the end of that dark passage. At any rate the man was leading the way.

We know there were candles and a fire at Mary's. By that time I think there was so much pressure on Jack he mostly needed a safe place to do what he did. He had time to do horrible things but he also had LIGHT so see what he was doing. He was the most creative that night. Abberline suggested the burned clothing was for the purpose of light but as many of us have noted, clothing does not burn very good and a better suggestion is he was covering the fire. There were still candles and maybe Jack had a candle or two in his pocket.

There are too few incidents and some interfering considerations to absolutely support my theory one way or another, but some questions come to mind. If he planned to lead Liz to a fairly private place with a light, could we guess where that might have been in relation to Dutfield's Yard? Does that make any suggestion about Jack's identity? If Jack chose the backyard in Hanbury St. then HE was familiar with that spot. How & why? If he killed Annie close to dawn, he must have believed he could extricate himself if he was seen with the body. I think a lot of the rented rooms in the area may not have had the benefit of a fireplace or a candle, or the tenants, many times, could not have afforded fuel or candles. Could the LIGHT sources have encouraged Jack to choose Mary and her room? How well planned and pre-planned were Jack's crimes? Perhaps very well planned.
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Old January 18th, 2016, 08:11 PM   #2
Howard Brown
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Good discussion starter, Anna. Thanks...

I think that there isn't any way to determine who chose Bucks Row. Its possible one or the other believed the stable yard was accessible.
Upon realizing it wasn't, IMHO the Ripper, if he had had a plan, ditched it and commenced to murdering her....he couldn't control his urge to kill...which might explain why we're puzzled with the site ( the pavement ) the murder was committed upon.

We have to remember that Polly had more experience in prostitution and all that it entails,( i.e. more knowledge of sites to select), than her killer.
More later....
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Old January 19th, 2016, 01:00 AM   #3
Scott Nelson
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The man who slept on the stairs in Chapman's case.
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Old January 19th, 2016, 04:26 AM   #4
Lynn Cates
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Hello Scott. Precisely.

Cheers.
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Old January 23rd, 2016, 07:18 PM   #5
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Do you believe that BS Man was Jack, Anna? I do have a bit of a problem with that, in that BS Man's behaviour seems very blatant for that individual. He began a squabble with a woman in a public street, tries to pull her into the street, didn't seem to care, (if we believe Schwartz), that passers by could see him, and didn't mind knocking down a woman in front of others (Schwartz and Pipe man.)

Incidentally, I've always found it a bit odd that BS Man just went up to this female and attacked her, didn't say anything to her DURING the attack, (as far as we know) not even a "Come here, b----h!" and she didn't reply, not a "Go away!" or "Get off me!" or anything, while this man starts pulling her and knocking her to the ground. Just a couple of low screams. I know these women were used to rough treatment from men but that does appear to be a trifle on the passive side!

Also, having received that treatment and picked herself up, the last place I think Liz would be retreating into, as a frightened female, would be a Yard that was deserted and as black as the ace of spades. I would surely try, even if I had to scream my head off while doing it, to get into the street where there was some light, passers by and a pub opposite. Also, hasn't it been speculated that Stride was in the act leaving the Yard, clutching her cachous, when she was attacked and killed?

I have to confess that I do just wonder, even if the timelines are whisker thin, if Schwartz came upon a domestic incident, nothing to do with Jack, and BS Man was nothing more than an enraged, violent boyfriend, and the woman not Liz. (I know Schwartz is said to have identified Liz as the woman he saw, but I do wonder.) If this was a domestic and the man and woman traced, then that would explain why Schwartz wasn't called to the Stride Inquest and why the loquacious Coroner Baxter made no reference to the incident during the proceedings.
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Old January 23rd, 2016, 08:19 PM   #6
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I do agree that the Polly Nichols murder is slightly different to the others in that Jack attacked and killed in an open thoroughfare, deserted and very dark but still a public street. I do think that he came by Polly through pure chance.

I have this theory, completely unbacked by any evidence, that the reddened skies, due to the terrible fires at the docks, set Jack off that night. He came upon Polly, who, hoping for a few pennies for a bed, may have walked along with him a little looking for a dark spot for business. I do think that if Browns stable yard had been open Polly's body would have been found in there. I agree that when it was found locked Jack couldn't wait any longer and just attacked and killed, fulfilling his fantasies. Even if Martha Tabram was his first he was still a very inexperienced killer.

With Annie Chapman's murder people were beginning to stir in the houses in Hanbury St, but I think that location was chosen possibly because it and neighbouring houses had unlocked street doors and stairs that could be used as dosses and for other purposes. This was probably well known locally by both men and women.

Perhaps there were noises of people moving about in the rooms, so Annie and Jack went out into the yard. However, he took a risk here too as it was only by chance that Mrs Richardson's workman, who used the cellar at 29, was late for work that morning. It was however reasonably light in the yard and there were fences to each side he could jump over to escape if he had to.

Each murder made him bolder IMO. I think by Stride's murder he was probably feeling omnipotent. Of course he was thwarted on that occasion but being near a lighted occupied kitchen and a side door that could be used by club members at any moment didn't phase him.

I think Jack may have found Kate walking around the foreground of St Botolph's, a well known area if a gal wanted a few pennies for a drink and a bed. I just don't go for the theory of the early morning appointment in Mitre Square.

It's debatable surely, that there was sufficient light to kill by in Mitre Square? There were only a few light sources around in that Square and none were near the empty houses and Mr Taylor's where Kate was found. How much light did these lamps outside Kearley and Tonge's and Williams and Co. cast, anyway? A restricted distance at best.

It would be tempting to think that Jack carried a candle and some kind of receptacle to stick it in while he worked. This of course would increase the risk as an inquisitive Morris or others could have investigated the pinpoint of light but I don't think Jack cared really.

The light needed at Mary's place could have been provided by a large fire. I've argued with several people about clothing used as fuel on fires and some have said that it smothers flames and causes smoke and others have stated that if clothing is placed on a fire an item at a time then it burns quite nicely.

I've gone backwards and forwards on this, but I have come to the conclusion that a blazing fire for just a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes (if clothing does burn) would provide enough light and a bit of heat for Ripper purposes, certainly more than Mary Kelly's penny candle or any candle he was carrying himself would provide.
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