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Old April 9th, 2011, 08:14 PM   #1
JTRSickert
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Default Diemschutz's horse & Stride

Hello everyone. It is good to be back here again. So, I was thinking about a topic to talk about and, I don't know if this has been brought up before or not, but it seems worthy of discussion. One of the differences between Stride's killing and the others has been the position of the body upon discovery. All of the others were found lying on their backs; she wasn't. However, is it possible she was on her back unti Louis Diemschutz entered Dutfield's yard with his horse and cart. He says that upon entering the gate, the horse stalled and wouldn't go further. So, hearing that, is it possible that the horse collided with Liz's body at a slow impact, but with enough force to cause her body to be in a different position than it was originally. Now, at first glance, this may seem like a moot point, but if Stride was originally lying on her back, it may show the Ripper's attack may have been different than the one described by Schwartz. Perhaps shortly after Schwartz left, the original attacker left too and then Jack comes over and does his thing. Just a thought.
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Old April 9th, 2011, 10:30 PM   #2
Howard Brown
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JT:

I'm one of those who think that had Schwartz seen Stride being attacked, that our gal Liz would have been the unluckiest woman ever to have been tossed about by one man and then murdered by another man in a matter of seconds/minutes.

I'm buying the beer if you can find a case where some woman..or man...got bumrushed,bulldogged and beaten up and then a few minutes later some other putz comes along and settled their hash.

On the other hand, that opinion shouldn't deter anyone who sees what JT is stating as a possibility.

Good to see you back..and I recieved your p.m. I'll stay in touch about that matter,buddy.
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Old April 10th, 2011, 03:55 AM   #3
Jonathan Hainsworth
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To How

Arguably that is what may have happened, at least according to the alternate version which Schwartz gave to 'The Star', as opposed to the police.

You know, where 'Pipeman' becomes 'Knifeman'; a figure who more closely resembles the 'sailorish' figure seen by Lawende, at the second murder that night.
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Old April 11th, 2011, 12:51 PM   #4
Cris Malone
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Good to see you back. JT... you always ask good questions.

I don't believe Diemshitz's pony would have touched Stride's body. Despite how Hollywood has portrayed horses in some movies ( trampling people in stampedes and all) equines actually go out of their way to avoid contact with things that are not part of their normal routine.I've had horses jump right over me at re-enactments.

As prey animals, they are hard-wired to react just as Louis' pony did; see an unfamiliar object in front of them (their night vision is excellent); shy away to the opposite side or even back up; then flare their nostrils to get the scent of the object to determine if there's danger. What they do after that instinctive reflex is determined by their training and trust in their owner.... which Louis and his pony seemed to have established because he was able to settle the animal down, dismount from the cart without holding the reins and light a match to check the woman out before the wind blew it out.

Stride was lying parallel to the wall and very close to it. There was little mud/manure on her except on her left side... the side she was lying on. If she had, initially, been on her back, it would have been covered in muck. The pony was parallel as well and would have had to push her sideways to move her... and he wasn't about to do that.
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Old April 11th, 2011, 02:39 PM   #5
Chris G.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTRSickert View Post
Hello everyone. It is good to be back here again. So, I was thinking about a topic to talk about and, I don't know if this has been brought up before or not, but it seems worthy of discussion. One of the differences between Stride's killing and the others has been the position of the body upon discovery. All of the others were found lying on their backs; she wasn't. However, is it possible she was on her back unti Louis Diemschutz entered Dutfield's yard with his horse and cart. He says that upon entering the gate, the horse stalled and wouldn't go further. So, hearing that, is it possible that the horse collided with Liz's body at a slow impact, but with enough force to cause her body to be in a different position than it was originally. Now, at first glance, this may seem like a moot point, but if Stride was originally lying on her back, it may show the Ripper's attack may have been different than the one described by Schwartz. Perhaps shortly after Schwartz left, the original attacker left too and then Jack comes over and does his thing. Just a thought.
Good question, JT, although in the inquest testimony, I don't think there's any thought that the pony actually touched the body, just that the animal shied at the sight of the body and Diemschutz went to investigate. To my mind, the position of the body is entirely consistent with the killer having been disturbed by the approach of the horse and cart, and that he didn't have time to move her into position on her back to perform his trademark abdominal mutilations.

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Old April 11th, 2011, 08:15 PM   #6
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Thanks for the replies gentlemen.

Here's another one for you though. Since it is popularly assumed that the Ripper may have been hiding in the shadows when Diemschutz first pulled into the yard, the question is: at what poiint did the murderer draw back into the shadows (assuming that's what happened) and hid from Diemschutz? Did he hear Diemschutz's cart as he was coming down the street or just before he entered in the gateway? my personal guess is the former, since if the killer withdrew just as the cart was pulling in, the horse might have had a minor violent reaction. It probably would have neighed or maybe "jumped" it's front 2 legs in surprise as the killer backed off. Also, Louis didn't see anything in his field of vision to suggest someone backing away but then again, who is to say if he was paying attention real well? For example, while waiting for a friend of mine to show up, I began to drift and daydream and when my friend came up and said "hello," I was totally startled. So, anyone disagree with me?
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Old April 12th, 2011, 12:32 AM   #7
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Hey JT and all,

First of all I just want to say that i'm pleased that the theory of Pipeman as killer rather than BS man seems to be becoming increasingly popular - it's a scenario i've believed in for a considerable amount of time now and, while difficult to fathom at first, surely has to be a very likely solution.

As to the question at hand, I agree that the pony almost certainly did not touch the body - animals have a better sense of these things than humans do, and of course Diemshitz would not have expected to come across a body in the passageway - a passageway which was virtually in pitch black darkness, it should be added.

If Jack had been interrupted and forced to retreat further into the yard, surely he would have taken the opportunity to flee the instant Louis went inside to alert everybody and get some help - he couldn't risk waiting around as he would have been able to hear, even if he wasn't aware, that there was a gathering upstairs in the building, and such a discovery could mean a flood of people entering the passageway and yard with lights and, hence, his being caught-red handed. Or, also possibly, he could have left the scene altogether already by the time Diemschutz entered the passageway.

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Old April 12th, 2011, 08:40 PM   #8
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If Jack had been interrupted and forced to retreat further into the yard, surely he would have taken the opportunity to flee the instant Louis went inside to alert everybody and get some help....
Right, but the killer was not to know that Diemschutz would enter the house leaving the body unattended. Diemschutz could have stood with the body and shouted to the assembly inside, giving the killer no opportunity to slip away.


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... and such a discovery could mean a flood of people entering the passageway and yard with lights and, hence, his being caught-red handed.
As the crowd assembled in the yard, clustering around the body, the killer may have taken the opportunity to step out of the shadows and join the group. Afterall, he didn't have 'killer' stamped across his forehead, quite possibly not everybody knew each other anyway.
The killer will then casually slipped out the gate practically unnoticed.


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Or, also possibly, he could have left the scene altogether already by the time Diemschutz entered the passageway.
Possibly, but Berner St. seemed to have been somewhat busy, at least a number of people were standing around. No-one mentions a man alone walking away from the club as Diemschutz approached, neither did Diemschutz himself, and the police must have asked if he saw anyone leaving the scene as he approached.

Regards, Jon S.
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Old April 13th, 2011, 01:11 AM   #9
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Hi Wicker,

Right, but the killer was not to know that Diemschutz would enter the house leaving the body unattended. Diemschutz could have stood with the body and shouted to the assembly inside, giving the killer no opportunity to slip away.

Precisely, but then he wouldn't have known Diemschutz was going to appear either - unless he heard him coming and managed to slip out of the passageway without Diemschutz's taking any notice of him.

I agree that it's also plausible that he joined the mob milling around the body shortly afterwards and then slipped away out of there. Whatever the case, he was probably lucky that Louis' first course of action was to alert those upstairs and to check that his wife was alright.

Possibly, but Berner St. seemed to have been somewhat busy, at least a number of people were standing around. No-one mentions a man alone walking away from the club as Diemschutz approached, neither did Diemschutz himself, and the police must have asked if he saw anyone leaving the scene as he approached.

Who were these "number of people" you refer to? Leon Goldstein aside, having been spotted by Fanny Mortimer at her doorway somewhere close to 1 AM, I am not aware of anybody being spotted between Israel Schwartz's sighting at around 12.45 AM and the discovery of the body at around 1 AM - ample time for the murder to take place and the killer to escape, given that he committed a much more heinous crime in Mitre Square the same night in what was apparently less than 10 minutes.

Cheers,
Adam.
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Old April 13th, 2011, 01:21 AM   #10
JTRSickert
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[QUOTE=Adam Went;132218]Hey JT and all,

First of all I just want to say that i'm pleased that the theory of Pipeman as killer rather than BS man seems to be becoming increasingly popular - it's a scenario i've believed in for a considerable amount of time now and, while difficult to fathom at first, surely has to be a very likely solution.

Hey Adam,

I just read your idea about Pipeman being the actual murder and your hypothesis intrigues me. So, I guess, in this example you have outlined, Pipeman is actually the Ripper. And, does the scenario play out like this?: Liz gets into a domestic squabble either with a client or a personal acquaitance (Michael Kidney??) and this is witnesses by both Pipeman and Israel Schwartz. The assailant yells at Schwartz and he runs off. Pipeman tails Schwartz for a minute or two, just to make sure he is leaving the area and not informing any of the bobbies. Afterwards, Pipeman returns and, by this time, Liz's attacker has left and Liz is getting herself back together. At this point, Pipeman approaches her, perhaps telling her he wants to check on her and make sure she is ok. Once he knows her guard is down, he begins his attack...that is, until Diemschutz's cart is heard coming down the street.

Am I correct in assuming that is how the Pipeman-is-Jack idea goes? It sounds unlikely, but hey, anything is possible.
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