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Old April 13th, 2011, 04:47 AM   #11
Jonathan Hainsworth
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Unlikely?

It's arguably the gist of Schwarz's own account -- in the newspaper version -- in the sense that a young, Gentile-featured man produced a knife to protect Stride against her burly customer.

A broadly similar figure was seen, by Lawende, chatting with Eddowes before she was found cut up on the pavement.
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Old April 14th, 2011, 01:16 AM   #12
Adam Went
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JTR:

You've pretty much hit the nail bang on the head. The theory has been around for a little while now and it's something i've put forward in the past, including in my "A Matter Of Time" article last year - basically the idea is that Liz was an opportunistic kill for Jack. He spotted her being attacked by BS Man, and saw in it an opportunity, not only to comfort and lead a shaken victim into a dark alley but also for any potential witnesses, like Schwartz, to comment that he'd seen another man attacking her first - hence, the suspicion would fall on him, rather than the actual culprit.

Instead of going to Liz's aid, he watches. He shoo's Israel Schwartz away and, when BS man leaves the scene, Pipeman enters and takes his victim into the passageway under the pretext of comforting her and giving her a moment to collect herself.

Certainly food for thought for those who aren't aware of the theory up till now...

Cheers,
Adam.
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Old April 14th, 2011, 03:13 AM   #13
Lyn Resthal
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Adam, are you suggesting that Pipeman was JTR? Or, that Pipeman murdered Elizabeth Stride?

Personally I've never been able to get my head around Stride as a Ripper victim, but I'm open to hearing what others think.
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Old April 14th, 2011, 04:39 AM   #14
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I am arguing that 'Pipeman' is really 'Knifeman' (the newspaper account) and the murderer of Stide. He came to her 'rescue' and then killed her. Unable to mutilate he feld the scene, and was then seen with Eddowes by Lawende.
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Old April 15th, 2011, 02:31 AM   #15
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Hi all,

Lyn:

Yes, the argument that I would put forward is that Pipeman was indeed the murderer of Stride, as opposed to the long-standing belief that BS man must have been the culprit purely because of the actions Schwartz witnessed - and that would also make him JTR as I suspect both Liz (and Martha Tabram, for that matter) were Ripper victims.

(By the way, hope Dan and yourself are both keeping well )

Astonishingly, it seems Jonathan Hainsworth and myself are on exactly the same page.

Cheers,
Adam.
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Old April 15th, 2011, 04:55 AM   #16
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Adam, I've been out of the loop for a while, and so this is the first time I've seen this particular theory. I must say, it's a welcome change from the usual 'Royals were responsible'. But, give me a few days to think it over. Particularly to re-think why Michael Kidney might go to the police station before word had been released -- as I said, I've been out of the loop. I'm only now getting the old spark back.

(Dan and I are about to renew our marriage vows after five years wed I can't believe you're not 16 any more! We've always been proud of you Adam, and by the looks of things, we were right to.)
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Old April 15th, 2011, 05:59 AM   #17
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Default Knifeman becomes Pipeman?

Arguably, you have two secondary sources -- both published -- who are diametrically opposed about the veracity of a police suspect (Druitt) and yet who essentially agree on another aspect of a source, regarding one of the murders.

That is, arguably, quite strong.

My theory on why Schwartz's account differs significantly between the police and the 'Star' is not due to his limited English, but rather his sense of acute embarrassment, and concern for his fellow Hebrews.

For example, Israel Schwartz may have felt that he had not done enough to assist a poor, vulnerable woman, who ended up being not just bashed but brutally murdered -- by no less than the Whitechapel assassin!

Therefore, to the police, he shaded the tale to make it seem as if he did not know (eg. 'Knifeman' becomes 'Pipeman') that there would be such an act of ultra-violence, plus there was some grotesque anti-Semtisim ('Lipski!') being thrown around menacingly, and he was being weirdly chased by the giant smoker.

Who could have known that this was going to be another ghastly murder?

To the press, by contrast, he was more candid; he was not being chased so much as he fled from a lithe, youngish, Gentile-featured man with a weapon, and who seemed to be trying to assist a prostitute who was being roughed up by her burly, also-Gentile-featured client.

In other words, to the public, he wanted to make it very clear that the murderer, if this was the fiend, was not a Jew -- he had the 'red' moustache of an Irishman and was brandishing a knife!
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Old April 15th, 2011, 06:29 AM   #18
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This is one of the things I need to take the time to carefully look at, Jonathan. I've already made myself look an idiot on the Julia Wallace thread by jumping the gun. And Ripper-wise, I'm still stuck in the age when we almost all believed that there were just three victims by the same hand.
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Old April 15th, 2011, 09:03 AM   #19
Jonathan Hainsworth
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To Lyn

Well then, pay no attention to anything I write as I am the Druitt Leper.
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Old April 15th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #20
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Hi Lyn and Jonathan,

Lyn:

Haha, I think we've all done that before when we've been away from the case for a while, so by all means think it through and read through any of the available material on it and then you'll no doubt have your own opinion. It really is only quite a modern theory as far as i'm aware, the last 18 months or so.

Many congrats to you and Dan, that's fantastic news, and it's good to see you back on the forums as well.

Jonathan:

I sort of agree with you about Schwartz - at the time he witnessed what he did, he wasn't aware that it would result in a murder which would be attributed to JTR. Would he have done things differently if he did? Probably. But put yourself in his position, an apparently young man who spoke barely any, if any English, caught in the midst of a sensational crime story - who could blame him if he just wanted to slide back underneath the radar?

Cheers,
Adam.
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