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Old April 16th, 2011, 08:35 AM   #21
Cris Malone
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Schwartz could have chosen not to go to the police at all and likely would have not suffered any consequences as a result... unless he thought Pipeman might be able to identify him. Few people willingly volunteered information without the police knocking on doors or if there was fear of implication (Goldstein).

The Pipeman as Elizabeth Stride's murderer theory relies too much on imagination and little on evidence. Schwartz's police account leaves nothing other than Pipeman vacating the scene and the Star rendition has to be considered in light of that publication's propensity for embellishment in its reporting of the whole series.
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Old April 16th, 2011, 08:56 PM   #22
Adam Went
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Cris:

I disagree. In witness descriptions for the murders of Annie Chapman (Elizabeth Long), Catherine Eddowes on the same night as Stride (Joseph Lawende) and Mary Kelly (George Hutchinson), one thing they all have in common is a description of the killer and his soon-to-be victim having a seemingly friendly conversation with one another - no yelling, no fighting, just talking normally. In the case of Elizabeth Stride, judging by Schwartz's testimony, we are expected to believe that a somewhat intoxicated BS man simply stumbled down Berner Street, grabbed Liz who was standing on the street and proceeded to have a full-on scuffle on the street with her, in full view of Schwartz, Pipeman and anybody else who cared to be watching at the time.

Then, 45 minutes later, we have him calmly talking to another victim! No signs of violence, no signs of drunkenness....the image of BS man as Stride's killer just does not fit.

On the other hand, JTR was an opportunistic and cunning killer - he could have been lurking around the area looking for a victim and then got a gift thrown right into his path when he spots Liz and BS man having an altercation.

You're right that it does require some guesswork and imagination, but it is entirely more plausible than the BS man as killer account that's been the generally accepted version for far too long now.

Cheers,
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Old April 16th, 2011, 11:14 PM   #23
Cris Malone
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Hi Adam,

You may have misunderstood my point a little. While suggesting that Pipeman as Stride's killer required more imagination than evidence, I wasn't trying to implicate BS man either.

The hour that all of this took place was when many men were making their way from the pubs to their home, lodging, etc... Drunks accosting women - especially prostitutes - would not have been abnormal. P.C. Lamb recalled in his testimony about the usual 'rows' that he had witnessed.

Quite frankly, I've never considered the incident between Liz Stride and BS man anything more than an obnoxious drunk harassing a woman standing alone; late at night, giving the appearance at least, of soliciting. Schwartz said that the man stopped and talked to her. If any of the Star account can be credited, BS man was walking ahead and in the same direction as Schwartz. As soon as he opened his mouth, Liz probably sized him up and decided she wanted nothing to do with him. He gets insulted (imagine a drunk doing that) pulls her to him... she resists... he, in essence says "To Hell with you!'... and throws her down on the walkway. He notices Schwartz and Pipeman staring at him... so he shouts "Lipsky!" as if demonstrating his power like an ape thumping his chest. Miss Angel was killed just one street over on Batty St and the murder was well remembered.... sounds like something a drunk that had just been turned down by a prostitute might say to me.

What happened after that, we do not know, but the way she was killed does not suggest that someone like that did it. Lamb said that she looked like she had been 'gently laid down'... and her throat was skilfully cut as it followed the edge of her neckerchief. Whoever killed her did it deliberately; intended to do it from the start and gave no indication to Stride that she was in danger... in my humble opinion.

Swanson implicated the possibility that BS man might not have been Stride's killer in his report. He undoubtedly communicated with Abberline and Reid... two men who knew the people there and the type of activities that went on at that hour. Prostitutes dealt with belligerent drunks on a regular basis. What happened there, at that time, with the Dockyards and its lodging houses just to the south seems plausable... with the real killer arriving afterwards.

That's my take on it based on the evidence. I just don't believe the 6' 11" Pipeman did it either. I think he and Schwartz just didn't want to tangle with BS man and they both split the scene... going in separate directions after some distance had been gained.

If the person known as Jack the Ripper killed her, I don't believe he walked up to women and accosted them the way BS man did Elizabeth... nor do I believe that he waited on the street corner - as Pipeman did- to find his opportunity... only to run away and then, come back to a scene where a row had already taken place. This man was probably a stalker on the prowl... staying mobile and as inconspicuous as he could... approaching his victim in a steadfast and reliable manner that he had fantasized about... probably many times.

My opinion is that the only time this murderer was really seen was when Lawende and company saw a man with Kate Eddowes only minutes before she was found mutilated in Mitre Square. I think that Swanson came to that conclusion as well... even though he believed Schwartz. He didn't seem to believe Mrs. Long and it is not known what he thought of Hutchinson. Swanson kept a chart outlining the witness sightings for comparison and later press reports give Lawende as the witness in two seperate ID attempts... and I believe he was probably used in the Kosminski ID attempt as well because Swanson realized this was as close as they ever got to having someone probably witnessing the murderer with a victim... even with the caveat of Lawende's apparent reluctance.

I also believe by that time, they considered the Stride and Eddowes murders as having been perpetrated by the same man anyway, because of Dr. Bond's report.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 12:27 AM   #24
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Hey Cris,

So basically what you're suggesting is that Liz's killer was entirely seperate to both BS man and Pipeman? Who else would you suggest, perhaps the old theory about a member of the IWMEC?

One of the more interesting topics in Liz's murder, and one which IMO doesn't receive enough attention, is that apparently Liz had not been drinking in the time immediately prior to her death. Earlier that day, she had earned sixpence for doing some cleaning. Yet there was no money found with her body. So what happened to the sixpence? If she hadn't blown it in the intervening hours, and judging by her actions that night it seems unlikely, where did it go?

It seems to me to be a possible scenario that in addition to attacking her, BS man may also have stolen the sixpence. If he didn't steal it, it may have fallen out of Liz's pockets as she was being thrown around, in which case it would quickly have been snapped up by the first person who spotted it.

If we presume for a moment that JTR killed Liz and the murder was entirely opportunistic rather than having any level of planning, would it not be an absolute gift to him to witness a physical attack of a woman standing alone near a dark, deserted yard and passageway, and a potential robbery to go with it? If Schwartz's statement is true, then Pipeman witnessed all of this.

In any case, it's an intriguing mystery - and for the most part I think we are in agreement on BS man, at least.

Cheers,
Adam.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 09:07 AM   #25
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Hi Adam,

To me, Elizabeth Stride's murder is the most compelling of the series.. for a variety of reasons... lots of contradictions and lots of possibilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Went View Post
So basically what you're suggesting is that Liz's killer was entirely separate to both BS man and Pipeman? Who else would you suggest, perhaps the old theory about a member of the IWMEC?
I don't believe a club member killed Stride either. I do think some of them lied about not seeing Liz outside the club. She was there... and the club members never saw her before Louis found her dead nearly at their very doorstep?... come on!... That still doesn't implicate them for being complicit in her murder. They had just been handed a big sh!t sandwich right at their door. With the Leather Apron fiasco and its aftermath; the fact that their activities were suspect, not only by the authorities, but by folks in the Jewish community as well... Eagle and company were playing damage control.

If BS man, Pipeman, a club member or even MIchael Kidney didn't kill her, who did?... I don't know, but if the same man killed twice that night, it was probably the man Lawende saw quietly talking to Kate at the entrance to Church Passage... a man who doesn't really fit into any of the descriptions given in Berner St; a man who slipped in and out without notice... a man who intended to do just that. Some of the Berner St. witnesses seemed to have missed several people that night.

There may be one clue that links the two murders... and it comes from an unlikely source. If you have Sugden's book, read the first 2 paragraphs of page 212.


Quote:
One of the more interesting topics in Liz's murder, and one which IMO doesn't receive enough attention, is that apparently Liz had not been drinking in the time immediately prior to her death. Earlier that day, she had earned sixpence for doing some cleaning. Yet there was no money found with her body. So what happened to the sixpence? If she hadn't blown it in the intervening hours, and judging by her actions that night it seems unlikely, where did it go?
Dr. Phillips testified that he found no traces of alcohol in the stomach. Alcohol is absorbed into the bloodstream rather quickly upon consumption. Seven hours had passed from the time Mrs. Tanner paid her until the time she was found dead. Tanner said that she drank with her early in the evening. Best and his companion said they saw her leave a pub with a man... all of this long enough before she was killed for there not to be any detectable alcohol in her stomach at the time of death.

As was the habit of these women, Stride probably spent the money very early on... like Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and even Kelly, she found herself out late at night... broke and in need of doss money. With the recent murders, she thought she was being careful, staying near the club and turning down men who were suspect to her. Certainly, it didn't work. This kind of killer gave no warning; no suspicion. He had his approach to these women figured out... though something must have gone awry soon afterwards... the chances you take killing in the open street.


Quote:
It seems to me to be a possible scenario that in addition to attacking her, BS man may also have stolen the sixpence. If he didn't steal it, it may have fallen out of Liz's pockets as she was being thrown around, in which case it would quickly have been snapped up by the first person who spotted it.
These women carried anything valuable to them in a pocket of an interior garment or a hidden belt purse. Stride's key and other things were found by Phillips in such a location. Life on the streets had taught them to do so. Chapman and Eddowes did the same thing.

Quote:
If we presume for a moment that JTR killed Liz and the murder was entirely opportunistic rather than having any level of planning, would it not be an absolute gift to him to witness a physical attack of a woman standing alone near a dark, deserted yard and passageway, and a potential robbery to go with it? If Schwartz's statement is true, then Pipeman witnessed all of this.
Yes, Pipeman witnessed this and got the Hell out of there. He just doesn't fit the physical description of the man seen at Church Passage... the man that probably did kill Catherine Eddowes.

I believe a serial killer of this type was both a planner and an opportunist. He played out what he was going to do in his mind many times. His best opportunity was on weekend nights or hollidays and at the times when the pubs had closed and these wretched women were desperate to secure a bed after spending all of their money on drink. He knew the area and he knew where to find them... in the back alleys and streets that were the paths of pub crawlers finding their way home. With all of these murders there is a connected pattern here.

This individual was a hunter who stayed mobile; stalking in a game rich environment; passing through the streets at the witching hour... undetected for the most part... except for one time. Staying on the move was safer and kept him in contact with more potential targets. He probably let them approach him as he casually passed by... much easier that way and it assured a better chance of success with little chance that the woman may be more guarded toward him and suddenly flee or call for help. I believe the fact that he was able to connect with Eddowes so soon bears this out.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 09:57 AM   #26
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No, 'Pipeman' does not fit Lawende's 'Jack the Sailor' but 'Knifeman' comes close.

A young, lithe, Gentile-featured man in proletarian garb, and WIELDING A KNIFE, coming to the rescue of an Unfortunate -- the perfect cover.

(And neither figure appears in any document composed or originated by Macnaghten.)
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Old April 19th, 2011, 10:15 AM   #27
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No, 'Pipeman' does not fit Lawende's 'Jack the Sailor' but 'Knifeman' comes close.

A young, lithe, Gentile-featured man in proletarian garb, and WIELDING A KNIFE, coming to the rescue of an Unfortunate -- the perfect cover.

(And neither figure appears in any document composed or originated by Macnaghten.)
You mean Big Mac slipped up?
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Old April 20th, 2011, 04:56 AM   #28
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All joking aside, I think that SuperMac, in his memoir, eliminated 'Jack the Sailor' and 'Knifeman' (as he had done in his non-identical twin Reports) because he believed -- rightly or wrongly -- that these were sightings of young Druitt whilst he was propagating a middle-aged physician.

In 'Aberconway' it becomes a, presumably Gentile, beat cop sighting 'Kosminski'. This is clearly fictitious, as there was so such sighting of a Polish Jew at either murder scene that night -- it is, rather, a cunning inversion of the ethnicity of the witness and suspect. In his memoirs he reduces this all to nothing much; the un-named 'Kosminski' eliminated from the tale altogether.

Interesting too that only in his memoirs does Macnaghten deploy the graffiti, which does not appear in his Report(s) at all, and now becomes nothing less than the only clue left behind by the murderer.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 05:28 AM   #29
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Hey all,

Cris:

I can't agree about members of the IWMEC hiding certain knowledge of the murder. By the time of the killing, most if not all of the remaining members were upstairs singing and dancing - they would not have seen anything from up there, especially with the dismal lighting, and they most definitely would not have heard anything from down on the street. Even if one of them happened to glance out of a window onto the street and spotted a woman standing there, alone or talking to a man, that's not something worth taking any notice of without any reason for doing so. Even to witness a woman being physically attacked on the street would not have been entirely out of the ordinary in that area at that time - remember that there was several witnesses who claimed through the murder series that it was not uncommon at all to hear screams and cries in the night, it was just the sad world these people lived in.

I did read the two paragraphs of Sugden's that you mentioned, and the man on the step sounds like a perfectly plausible suspect.

Dr. Phillips testified that he found no traces of alcohol in the stomach. Alcohol is absorbed into the bloodstream rather quickly upon consumption. Seven hours had passed from the time Mrs. Tanner paid her until the time she was found dead. Tanner said that she drank with her early in the evening. Best and his companion said they saw her leave a pub with a man... all of this long enough before she was killed for there not to be any detectable alcohol in her stomach at the time of death.


Then you also had witnesses who claimed that Liz appeared to be perfectly sober - I know that's an entirely subjective opinion, but given the condition that the other victim that night was in earlier in the evening, it's worth keeping in mind.

Also, sixpence would have bought a few drinks - alcohol knowledge and training even now tells you that, as a rough guide, one "standard" drink takes approximately one hour to pass through your system completely, depending on a number of factors - if Liz had been drinking with Tanner much earlier on, which we know she was, and then gone out and blown the whole sixpence on more grog, and yet still showed no signs, medical or physical, of having been drinking, even a small amount....I just don't know. It's impossible to judge without knowing how much she had drunk, of what alcohol and when she consumed the drinks.

From what had happened in Liz's life, I would LIKE to believe that she dressed up and saw the night of September 30 as a turning point in her life, where she was really going to try and make things better for herself. Whether or not that's the truth is another matter....

As for the description Schwartz gave of Pipeman, you're right that it doesn't match Lawende's man - however, bear in mind that Schwartz's main attention was focused on BS man who was in the process of assaulting a woman - Schwartz's view of Pipeman would have been cursory at best and, as we know he was standing in a doorway, he may even have potentially been standing on some sort of ledge or rise in the pavement which made him appear a few inches taller than he really was....in age at least, he fits in with the majority of other witness descriptions.

Jonathan:

It really is a perfect cover. Personally I believe that Jack planned his murders to a degree, he chose favoured locations and had in his mind a rough idea of what he was going to do before he actually approached his victim - in Liz's case, he may simply have been stalking the streets at the time and then came across what would have seemed to him to be a perfect opportunity - hence that could have contributed to his being interrupted, the fact that he hadn't really 'planned' to kill a woman there, but couldn't resist taking the opportunity he was presented with by BS man.

Cheers,
Adam.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 09:14 AM   #30
Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO
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Quote:
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I'm buying the beer if you can find a case where some woman..or man...got bumrushed,bulldogged and beaten up and then a few minutes later some other putz comes along and settled their hash
Though not exactly as you describe Howard, a few cases spring to mind such as that of Peter Kurten being the saviour of a woman who was being harassed by a man, only to go on to attack her himself

There are numerous cases of women/girls being raped and escaping, approaching people to help, only to be raped again by the helper

I know of cases where this occurred more than three times

Her's a modern example...

http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...r-girl-pcr-van

Cases I've come across where the victim is being attacked by one person or persons, only to be approached and killed by another are usually where there is some connection between the attackers, such as in a gang scenario or where there are at least two assailants - which may be of relevance
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