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Old February 4th, 2010, 07:13 AM   #1
Howard Brown
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Default The IWMEC & Elizabeth Stride 2

Inspired by some comments provided by Mike Richards, this thread is for any discussion relevant to the IWMEC and the murder victim found in Dutfield's Yard.

As before, Mike has the floor....
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Old February 5th, 2010, 08:47 PM   #2
Mike Richards
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Im not used to such pleasantries as introducing thread ideas.... but I could get used to it, thanks a lot Howard.

When I first began to study the cases I imagined the International Club members as rather innocuous looking, salt and pepper bearded gentlemen in their 40's, 50's and perhaps even older men, who would discuss Socialist ideals wistfully in Yiddish while the others were smoking pipes and nodding their heads. They would convert a few attendees on a Saturday night, collect some new and old membership dues, and nobody gets hurt...so to speak.

Therefore I wasnt disturbed by the portrayal of these men as being very afraid in the presence of such violence...in their own way, Morris Eagle, Isaac Kozebrodksi and Louis Diemshitz convey that they were quite upset at the discovery. Understandable for sure.

But what upset them? The murder itself and/or the blood...or the position it put them in that night?

I now know after some research and some help from Tom Wescott on the ages of some of these men that these were not idle Socialists who gathered to moan and gripe each Saturday night. These were men who dedicated their lives in some cases, like Wess's, to moving their political agendas forward, and were known by the local authorities in doing so. The International Club on Berner Street attracted the radical fringe elements of Social activists, artists, bohemians, anarchists and generally disenfranchised throughout the neighborhood. And they were not old men. Issac Kozebrodski is 17 or 18 years old, Morris Eagle is approx 28 and Louis Diemshitz the Club Steward is approx 30. These same men charge police with sticks and clubs in 1889.... in Dutfields Yard....and Louis and Isaac are arrested during that altercation.

I began to see a rather different profile of that Club and that changed what I perceived as the "innocent" alarm that they convey. Its that change in perception that suggests to me that the men at the Club had many reasons to portray themselves as being completely blameless for the murder in their passageway....whether they had anything to do with it or not.

And it appears that all the evidence that is given by the members of the club and Israel Schwartz aid in that cause, which makes me wonder about the fortunate convenience of it all. Only Club members tell us what happened when Liz was found, who was in the yard, what they saw and did, and only Israel Schwartz claims he saw and heard something involving Liz that happens after 12:35 and PC Smiths sighting,... just before she is found.

An empty yard, no witnesses from the Club or witnesses that see members of the club or anything else during Liz Strides last 15 minutes, and one added altercation that no-one saw or heard that puts her in the hands of an assailant, likely Gentile, off the property just before she will be killed.

I would say that the statements given by the members and Schwartz put the Club itself in the most positive light that it might be seen in regarding any suspicions of their complicity with that crime that may have cropped up. They were after all a Club full of men just like Anderson said were the "ascertained" Ethnic origins of Jack.

Considering the nature of the organization and their likely involvement in local matters the police would find interesting, like strike or march organizing for example.....and considering the fact that not one of the member statements that night from Morris Eagle, Lave, Isaac Kozebrodski, Mrs Diemshutz, Louis, Heschberg, Gillen have corroboration... even from each other, including the later statement from Israel Schwartz which is curiously absent in the Inquest records, ....shouldnt we almost assume that at least some of the statements made that night were to create the best public face for the Club and its members regarding this crime?

If Israel Schwartz actually attended the meeting that night as a member or visitor, could his statement have been given so as to best assist or protect the club?

These men didnt respect law enforcement, or their neighbors, or the rules of the country they now lived in. Why should we believe they would be forthright and truthful about a murder that on the surface looks quite bad for them?

Sorry for the long explanation, but I though it best to set it up fully for any discussion.

My best regards all
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Old February 5th, 2010, 08:49 PM   #3
Howard Brown
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Over on Berner Street ( the thread, not the actual street...), Mike Richards mentions this:

1. "It seems to me that the lunatics are running the asylum figuratively speaking, we are asked to rely on uncorroborated statements from the very men who would most likely be the primary suspects in her death... for all the most pertinent data concerning what transpired Liz's last few minutes alive.

2. Men that we know are anarchists and radicals....men the police knew were anarchists and radicals, and men that attack the Police with Clubs a few months later in Dutfields Yard.
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1. Lets not forget Mike, that the people inside the Club were thoroughly searched and interrogated. Had anyone been suspicious to the investigating officers ( and those who see anti-Semites in their soup should have something to say about this incident ), why on earth wouldn't the police not take one or two down to the police station just for jolly ?

2. Anarchists aren't usually found in the annals of crime committing murders which would cause problems or give a bad reputation to the cause they are "fighting for". London was like Shangri-la compared to what the anarchists said Eastern Europe was like and I think they should have been deported. Yet, these people, who like most leftist "idealists" in the United States, are narcissists and will do anything not to damage the proposed cause of their group(s). Murdering a woman in the Yard with all those fellow "comrades" in the Club and subjecting them to police scrutiny would have had that member immediately ousted or worse.

By the way, the police attempted to break up a melee between the nogoodniks with the assimilated Jews in Berner Street and were not the focus of that brawl. A.P. has opined that the police were the goons of the "system" and the assimilated Jews in that fight ( Some riot... not one person sent to the hospital if the papers I read are correct). If this battle had not seen an entity that mainstream Jews and native born were generally antithetical to, then it would not have recieved half the ink it did. The police who were there were not goons or hired hands of the "system". In fact, one got lumped up by some of the female pacifists inside as well in the Yard. Ouch,already....

In addition Mike, Diemshitz, who did assault a policeman ( Constable Frost ) did so but with a broomhandle, which appears to be the heaviest of the heavy artillery used by the members who ran out of the Club with sticks to attack the other Jews........and according to the accounts Frost had to tell Diemshitz he was a policeman, as he may have been in plainclothes. Otherwise, why would Frost have to "tell" Diemshitz who he was ?
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Old February 6th, 2010, 11:17 AM   #4
Mike Richards
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Obviously some good points Howard.

1. Lets not forget Mike, that the people inside the Club were thoroughly searched and interrogated. Had anyone been suspicious to the investigating officers ( and those who see anti-Semites in their soup should have something to say about this incident ), why on earth wouldn't the police not take one or two down to the police station just for jolly ?

Before they had even finished searching the yard the second murder was committed, and all they had at this site were the statements of Club members that no-one was in the yard just before she is found just inside the gates from the street and Diemshitz finds her. Nothing to cast suspicion on them directly from outside witnesses. And you can add that Eagle and Louis recalled calling for help using "another woman" has been killed, inferring the death was attributable to the Ripper at large. Which the second murder seemingly confirms, he likely was out that night.

2. Anarchists aren't usually found in the annals of crime committing murders which would cause problems or give a bad reputation to the cause they are "fighting for". London was like Shangri-la compared to what the anarchists said Eastern Europe was like and I think they should have been deported. Yet, these people, who like most leftist "idealists" in the United States, are narcissists and will do anything not to damage the proposed cause of their group(s). Murdering a woman in the Yard with all those fellow "comrades" in the Club and subjecting them to police scrutiny would have had that member immediately ousted or worse.

I would agree that murder isnt part of any Socialist agenda, although the splinter factions that grew since Trafalgar were very capable and ready to kill for the cause, often Socialists and Fenians working together. We know in fact the Fenians had ongoing assassination Plots that same Fall.

What I am seeking to illustrate is that The International Club was a know den of activist Socialists, Im sure some radical splinter factions and labor movement activists......they were in a very serious position when a woman is found murdered on their private property while 28 or so men who roughly match Anderson's opinion of the ethnic profile of the Ripper were inside drinking and singing.

I do not believe they would have made statements that suggested a club member or attendee had access to the victim alone in the passage, nor would they give the police any reason to suspect that a Jewish man committed the deed.

So we have statements of an empty yard, no-one saw anything including each other, and later a Gentile just outside the gates assaulting the woman minutes before her throat will be cut.

Very fortuitous...or was it managed good fortune?

Best regards Howard
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Old February 6th, 2010, 11:36 AM   #5
Howard Brown
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Nicely done Mike.

Two things:

1.Before they had even finished searching the yard the second murder was committed, and all they had at this site were the statements of Club members that no-one was in the yard just before she is found just inside the gates from the street and Diemshitz finds her.

It needs to be mentioned for those reading that the "they" were Metropolitan Police...while obviously in Mitre Square, the City Police were investigating that murder.

You mentioned the knives present inside the Club on the Berner Street club and then again, sticks or clubs, being present in the 1889 skirmish on the street between the two parties on another thread.

When the police inquired and as we say in Philadelphia, probably "tossed the place" looking for clues or trying to ascertain whether the killer went inside the club after killing Stride or emanated originally from the club, they came up empty. Nothing seemed out of order inside the Club to the best of their on site inquiries and to the best of our knowledge.
*********************

2. "So we have statements of an empty yard, no-one saw anything including each other, and later a Gentile just outside the gates assaulting the woman minutes before her throat will be cut.

Very fortuitous...or was it managed good fortune?

Although I don't "think" the assailant was a Jew, what qualifies BS Man as being definitely Jewish ?

Back to you Mike and just so you don't think this question is a set up, we know Jews also are on record as having used that term of opprobrium towards other Jews and in addition, we cannot be certain that what BS Man said ( although we "think" Schwartz was correct ) was the name Lipski.

Therefore, aside from what Schwartz asserts what was said, what other qualifier dictates that BS Man was a Gentile ?

Back to you,old bean...
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Old February 6th, 2010, 02:41 PM   #6
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I think it might be relevant to suggest that one goes back a bit, and examines the illustrations and texts that I posted here on site some years ago, which specifically show the folk who attended meetings at the Berner Street IWMEC during the period we discuss, and exactly what went on there.
It altered my view at the time I found it.
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Old February 6th, 2010, 03:24 PM   #7
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And when one does go back and examine those captions which make the Club look like a revival meeting and not some smoky subterranean haunt filled with the grimy malcontents of society, what does it spell to you A.P.?
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Old February 6th, 2010, 05:12 PM   #8
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Hi again Howard and AP,

Before I address any specific point, here's a snippet from The Irish Times on October 1st....

"The police also know well that the place (The International Club on Berner) has always had in it a number of the worst characters."

From Fanny Mortimer, same publication, from the Inquest...

"I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed when I heard a commotion outside and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists Club close by.

From the Echo, October 8th...

"Sir Charles Warren thinks that all clubs should be placed under supervision..."

There are lots of quotes I could find from contemporary sources which suggest that The International Club on Berner often had "low men and women" in attendance, and that their reputation was that of a club that often had fights and shady characters in the yard on meeting nights until after 1am.

Heres a snippet from The London Times on April 26th 1889 regarding the riot in the yard....

"After the dispersal of the procession, many of those composing it returned to the International Workmen's Club, Berner-street, Commercial-road, E., of which they were members, and from which the procession had started. A crowd of some 200 or 300 persons, who had been following the procession, assembled outside the club, and began to annoy those inside by throwing stones, hooting, and knocking at the door. The defendant Diemschitz, steward of the club, sent for the police, but when they arrived those inside the club assumed the defensive, and, rushing out in a body, attacked the crowd with broom sticks, walking sticks, and umbrellas. It was stated that the defendants bore a prominent part in the fight, and that Diemschitz struck and kicked plain clothes constable Frost, who interfered. Frost attempted to arrest Diemschitz, but was dragged into the club, where he was beaten and kicked."

Whatever happened in that yard... it does not appear that the Club members and Louis in particular had any reluctance for engaging in physical assault...including, on the Police.

If anything that last example should illustrate that they would fight to protect their property and persons, perhaps on the night Stride was killed that protective streak included modifying statements to eliminate any possible suspicions about club members.

If I had to guess which was more distressing to the members that night, it would be that the murder occurred on their property...not merely that it occurred.

Best regards AP and HB
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Old February 6th, 2010, 05:20 PM   #9
Howard Brown
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Mike:

Thanks for going to the trouble of looking all that up.
I was waiting for dear old A.P. to elaborate on that nice find of his...which for the life of me I was unable to locate on the Forums, but its here,I know it is...the sanitized and dolled up representation of the inside of the Club that A.P. generously shared before. I just wanted to see if A.P.'s interpretation of the caricature matches the way the Club was presented.

I too have found a few articles and quotes that mirror what you found Mike...and one in particular was from a neighbor ( not Fanny Mortimer) but probably from one within the lot you found. Those lefties were very noisy on a regular basis, according to the neighbor....somewhat disheartening considering how much lefties are always blabbering on about "the people" and their rights.

Except when it comes to their right to make noise.
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Old February 6th, 2010, 07:20 PM   #10
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Well, dear gents, what struck me at the time I found the images was the sheer amount of children that were present in the club till late at night; and we all know kids and how they can't sit still and listen to poetry and boring socialist sermon... but apparently on the night of Stride's murder not one of them ventured out into the yard?
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