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20. Schizophrenia "Schizophrenia was first identified about 1806. This might be something to think about as we ponder whether the man who was Jack the Ripper could have been a schizophrenic. - Christopher George

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Old November 4th, 2011, 08:25 PM   #1
Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO
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Default Hebrephenic Vs Paranoic

Discuss away...

My premise is that the Ripper would be more likely to be a paranoid schizophrenic rather than a hebephrenic shizophrenic

Alongside this premise, can Aaron Kosminski be diagnosed as suffering from hebephrenic schizophrenia rather than any other mental illness?
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Old November 4th, 2011, 08:30 PM   #2
Jeff Leahy
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isorganized schizophrenia, also known as hebephrenia is a subtype of schizophrenia as defined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, DSM-IV code 295.10.[1]
Disorganized schizophrenia is thought to be an extreme expression of the disorganization syndrome that has been hypothesised to be one aspect of a three-factor model of symptoms in schizophrenia,[2] the other factors being reality distortion (involving delusions and hallucinations) and psychomotor poverty (poverty of speech, lack of spontaneous movement and various aspects of blunting of emotion).

Try wiki first shall we

"This form of schizophrenia is typically associated with early onset (often between the ages of 15 and 25 years) and is thought to have a poor prognosis because of the rapid development of 'negative' symptoms and decline in social functioning"

and?
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Old November 4th, 2011, 08:31 PM   #3
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Hebrephenic Vs Paranoic

Is that how you'd characterize your debates with Jeff Leahy?

<--- Jeff

<----- Nemo

<---- When no one's looking

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old November 4th, 2011, 08:33 PM   #4
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Yes, and by pure coincidence, the smilies also represent a paranoic schitzophrenic
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Old November 4th, 2011, 08:39 PM   #5
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Please come back to me when you've both dome some basic research on this illness...which is what it is....

Of course there is some recent thinking which seeks to rethink some of these syptoms as syndromes

But however you think this is very rare and taking the advice of people with day to day experience of the condition is the practiacal way of trying to understand what might...and I say might be happening

Yours Jeff
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Old November 4th, 2011, 08:41 PM   #6
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www.schizophrenia.com is slightly more up-market Jeff

Here's a nice summary of the "old" term "hebephrenic" schizophrenia...

Hebephrenic schizophrenia, more commonly known as disorganized schizophrenia, is one of the subtypes of schizophrenia.

It is a complex and chronic psychiatric disorder. The term “hebephrenic” is an older term which is still used in some classifications of psychiatric disorders with regards to this type of schizophrenia

The primary symptoms include significant impairment in thought processes, speech, behavior, and emotional expression and response.

Characteristics and Symptoms

There are three prominent symptoms which are characteristic of hebephrenic schizophrenia:

Disorganized speech
Disorganized speech may be evidenced in a variety of ways. For example, when responding to a question, the person may give an answer which has little or no relevance to the question. S/he may abruptly jump from one topic to another while talking, or make up words as s/he goes along. In particularly severe cases, the person’s words may be complete nonsense, sometimes referred to as “word salad”.

This impairment in speech is due to significant impairment in the person’s thinking. His/her thought processes are often illogical, and don’t connect very well. Hence it shows up in his/her speech.

Hebephrenic schizophrenics often experience something known as “thought blocking”. They may stop suddenly while talking, as if the thought abruptly left them. They may express feeling as if someone or something removed the thought from their mind.

Disorganized behavior
When a schizophrenic’s behavior is considered “disorganized”, it may mean s/he is unable to or lacks the motivation to start or carry out a given task, such as preparing a meal or getting dressed. Their behavior may be bizarre, such as wearing layer upon layer of clothing in the middle of summer. Or, their behavior may be grossly inappropriate, such as acting out sexually in public. They may completely neglect personal grooming and have a very unkempt appearance.

Blunted or inappropriate emotional expression and response
A person with hebephrenic schizophrenia will often appear to have no emotions. His/her face may look completely blank, and his/her speech may be monotone. At times, s/he may have an emotional response which is completely irrelevant to the context, such as laughing or giggling suddenly, when nothing funny has occurred.

Additional Diagnostic Criteria
In order to meet the diagnosis of schizophrenia, regardless of the type, these other criteria must also be met:

A marked decline in functioning, after the onset of symptoms, in at least one of the primary aspects of the person’s life (e.g., work, school, relationships, self-care)

Signs of the disorder are present continuously for a period of at least 6 months. For at least one month of that time period (less if they subside due to effective treatment), the active-phase symptoms (e.g. delusions, hallucinations, extremely disorganized behavior, etc.) must be present.
Schizoaffective disorder (a disorder similar to schizophrenia but with prominent mood episodes) or other mood disorder have been ruled out

Other Characteristics
Other characteristics often exhibited by individuals with hebephrenic schizophrenia may include poor job or school performance, social withdrawal, lack of coordination, odd postures, childlike silliness, or grimacing. While they may have hallucinations or delusions, they are not pronounced. Since they are often quite impaired, living independently may be impossible for them.

written by Dr. Cheryl Lane, PsyD
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Old November 4th, 2011, 08:48 PM   #7
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Hebophrenics can still experience paranioa which is common within the condition, it can take place between 18-25 years

Your not making a case here Nemo

Yours Jeff
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Old November 4th, 2011, 08:53 PM   #8
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I'm not making a case Jeff, that would be me trying to prove a negative

If I were making a case it would be that the Ripper was a paranoid schizophrenic suffering from delusions

I'm genuinely interested in what you/Lars have to put forward that would indicate that Kosminski/ the Ripper suffer from hebephrenic schizophrenia
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Old November 4th, 2011, 08:59 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
I'm not making a case Jeff, that would be me trying to prove a negative

If I were making a case it would be that the Ripper was a paranoid schizophrenic suffering from delusions

I'm genuinely interested in what you/Lars have to put forward that would indicate that Kosminski/ the Ripper suffer from hebrephenic schizophrenia
What I think is as irelivant as what Tom Wescott thinks..

Its what Dr Lars thought...that is important

He was given the case notes and all information pertaining to Aaron Kosminski and came to teh conclussion the Aaron was suffering Hebophrenic Schizophrenia and I spoke to another expert who confirmed that..

So I'm just going by what I've been advised and I'm quoting my sources.

If you'd like to disagree with that then please quote yours

Yours Jeff
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Old November 5th, 2011, 12:48 AM   #10
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Jeff, I'm not disputing Lars' work as I haven't seen it. I'm just disagreeing with you stating certain things as fact when they are in reality your incorrect interpretation of someone's opinion that you contradict at times

You have stated a number of times that Aaron is a hebephrenic schizophrenic and you just said you came to that conclusion independently from Lars due to you spending years studying and "specialising" in the subject

Well, is it too much to ask you to explain that in detail? Why do I need to provide sources to do that?

Have you formed an opinion as to why the conclusion is correct, or did you just blindly accept it as you are making out now?

In your learned opinion, is a HS more likely to be the Ripper than any other type of schizophrenic?

Let me help you - because you haven't really got a clue about schizophrenia have you?

You haven't spent years "specialising" in the subject have you?

When someone asks you to explain your confident assertion, you decline and just point them to Lars work, which is fair enough, that's where I will look before I respond further - is it available?

In the meantime, we find that Lars states (according to you yourself) that he can't really assess Kosminski without having met and worked with him - I'd agree

Lars and "Dr X" state that a HS is no more likely to commit this type of crime than any other

If Aaron was found to be a HS then I think that would actually go against him being the Ripper

If it's a theory that Aaron was a HS then that's fine

It's you touting it as a fact that strengthens Kosminski's candidacy as the Ripper and tagging Lars' name on it as an expert that is out of order

There are people reading these boards who may value your opinion, and in my opinion you are leading them astray

It's that simple
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