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20. Schizophrenia "Schizophrenia was first identified about 1806. This might be something to think about as we ponder whether the man who was Jack the Ripper could have been a schizophrenic. - Christopher George

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Old November 5th, 2011, 01:19 AM   #11
Tom_Wescott
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I confess that the 'Dr. Lars' talk had me perplexed for a while. I thought perhaps Mr. Poster had returned...with a medical degree. God help us if that happened.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old November 5th, 2011, 07:06 AM   #12
Jeff Leahy
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Jeff, I'm not disputing Lars' work as I haven't seen it. I'm just disagreeing with you stating certain things as fact when they are in reality your incorrect interpretation of someone's opinion that you contradict at times
And where i have requested that you demonstrate, show source for that opinion, you fail to do so.

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You have stated a number of times that Aaron is a hebrephenic schizophrenic and you just said you came to that conclusion independently from Lars due to you spending years studying and "specialising" in the subject
NO. Dr Lars came to the opinion that Aaron Kosminski was a hebophrenic Schizophrenic. I simply see no reason to contradict that opinion.

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Well, is it too much to ask you to explain that in detail? Why do I need to provide sources to do that?
Because its you that are making the claim its wrong. So I'm asking you to explain why.

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Have you formed an opinion as to why the conclusion is correct, or did you just blindly accept it as you are making out now?
I see no reason to contradict his conclusion. Its you that seem to believe that Hebophrenic and paraniod Schizophrenia are seperate illness. Where as I see paranioa as a syndrome of Hebophrenic Schizophrenia. And as we know Aaron heard 'vioces' telling him the movement of all mankind...it strikes me that this is a clear symptom of paranioa and hebophrenic schizophrenia.

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In your learned opinion, is a HS more likely to be the Ripper than any other type of schizophrenic?
YES

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Let me help you - because you haven't really got a clue about schizophrenia have you?
I first started work on a program called 'Insdie the mind of Jack the Ripper' in 2003-4, long before coming to the Definitive Story. So my interest in this particular area of teh Ripper case is a long one. But I am an amiteur ripperologist not an accademic. As a producer I seek professional opinion.

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You haven't spent years "specialising" in the subject have you?
Read above. Its an area that interests me and I have sort expert opinion on.

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When someone asks you to explain your confident assertion, you decline and just point them to Lars work, which is fair enough, that's where I will look before I respond further - is it available?
Actually my research was done with another expert who due to his posistion was unable to contribute to the program except in an advisory capacity. Working in this field is somewhat sensitive. And making public connection to Jack teh Ripper and schizophrenia would be highly irresponcible. Schizophrenic's are not more dangerous than other members of society and it would be wrong to demonize a vonerable section of society.

The JtR case is unique and so rare that you can count similar occurances (depending how you do so) in almost single figures in the past 120 years.

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In the meantime, we find that Lars states (according to you yourself) that he can't really assess Kosminski without having met and worked with him - I'd agree
YES. Both Dr Lars and Dr X have stated that to draw the conclusion that Aaron was Jack the Ripper from the available evidence is NOT possible. They would have to undertake one to one study and even then perhaps never reach a conclusion. What is being discussed is the POSSIBILITY that Aaron Kosminski may have been Jack the Ripper. And in that there appears to be nothing specific, from what is known that rules out the possibility. His age and syptom's and his lack of violence once removed from environment all appear consistant with what is known about Schizophrenia.

Although Dr X raised several aspects of what is known as being unusual. Schizophrenics by and large have low sex drives. Compulsive masterbation is not a typical symptom.

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Lars and "Dr X" state that a HS is no more likely to commit this type of crime than any other
NO. the precise quote is 'Nomore likely than other members of society to commit violent crime.' I'd say that was fairly specific.

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If Aaron was found to be a HS then I think that would actually go against him being the Ripper
Yes you keep saying this but then provide no source or rreason for your conclussion. Which is very frustrating.

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If it's a theory that Aaron was a HS then that's fine
Why is that fine? Dr Lars gave his professional opinion that from what he had read on teh subject (and he was provided with all existing case notes) that he felt Aaron Kosminski suffered a form of schizophrenia which he would describe as hebophrenic Schizophrenia.

That was his professional opinion.

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It's you touting it as a fact that strengthens Kosminski's candidacy as the Ripper and tagging Lars' name on it as an expert that is out of order
No. I've simply said that theres nothing in what is known that excludes Aaron Kosminski as a potencial perpetrator of these crimes.

Given that its been argued extensively that because Aaron doesnt appear to have been violent enough to have committed the JtR murders. i think this is a valid point to highlight. In itself it doesn't make Aaron Kosminski jack the Ripper its just another piece of the jigsaw I feel doesn't exclude him from being so.

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There are people reading these boards who may value your opinion, and in my opinion you are leading them astray
In what way? You keep saying this but provide know evidence or explanation for your reasoning.

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It's that simple
No it isn't.

Yours Jeff
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Old November 5th, 2011, 08:06 AM   #13
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"Duckworth says, "Again, it's complicated. The truth is that most people are completely benign. But, another truth: There is a small subset of the population that can be dangerous, usually people who are also using drugs or alcohol. And, around 10 percent kill themselves, which is inherently violent."

There is evidence that suggests that psychoses can and do fuel violent behaviors, but the actual numbers don't justify a fear of all people with schizophrenia. People with psychotic symptoms account for only 5 percent of violent crime, and some estimate the number closer to 1 percent."

Please be aware that I have consistantly pointed out, how rare violent schizophenic or psychotic behaviour actually is....

My arguement also balances the very rare and uniquie occurance of the Ripper murders which now leaves me to believe the possibility that Jack killed more women than the suggested cannon.

"Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that is caused within people. This disorder takes the person away from reality and in addition they start going in a fantasy arena of their own. 1-2% to the population is affected on this disorder worldwide. There are several , among which disorganized schizophrenia is just about the most dangerous ones. This disorder can also be known as hebephrenic schizophrenia. It will always be cased after the age of 25 playing with rare cases it will always be observed earlier also."

I would think that Aaron's age of development of schizophrenia was quite key in his Dr LArs thought process. Late teens early twenties actually being the typical age range of Hebophrenic schizophrenic on-set.

Yours Jeff
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Old November 5th, 2011, 10:23 AM   #14
Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO
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Originally Posted by Nemo
Jeff, I'm not disputing Lars' work as I haven't seen it. I'm just disagreeing with you stating certain things as fact when they are in reality your incorrect interpretation of someone's opinion that you contradict at times

Originally Posted by Jeff
And where i have requested that you demonstrate, show source for that opinion, you fail to do so.


I provided sources on the other thread that indicate you contradict yourself when referencing Lars work, so I think I've adequately shown that you are stating things that rely on your incorrect interpretation of someone's opinion

Where did your statement originate that a hebephrenic schizophrenic is the most likely sub category of schizophrenia to commit these type of crimes?

Dr Lars himself might be concerned that you are claiming to quote him when you clearly are not

If you want me to explain why I personally think the symptoms of HS do not adequately match the known symptoms of Kosminski's illness then that is no problem, I'll get around to that shortly. I was just waiting to hear your detailed analysis so I know what I'm arguing against, but you seem loathe to express it

Meanwhile, if I can show you a report from an "expert" that says the Ripper is likely a paranoid schizophrenic, would you latch on to that report and claim it as truth? Is the crucial factor the commenter's expertise?

Would that negate Kosminski's candidacy as the Ripper in your mind? Or are you now saying Kosminski belongs to a subset of hebephrenic schizophrenics that are also paranoid schizophrenics?

You previously stated that you had a Eureka moment when you related the periodic nature of hebephrenic schizophrenia to the Ripper's timetable of attacks

In your sort of expert opinion, is a schizophrenic any more likely to commit violent crimes during psychotic periods than in periods of lucidity?

I note you don't seem so sure of the diagnosis and conclusions that can be drawn from it now

If you are saying that it is only a possibility that Kosminski was a disorganised schizophrenic, then I can go with that, as all things are possible

If you would like to detail why you agree with Dr Lars that Kosminski was possibly a HS then we have a starting point on which to discuss other possibilities

Until then, I can only assess what is required to diagnose a person as being a hebephrenic schizophrenic and compare it with what is known about Kosminski, and they don't adequately match IMO

Even if they did match and we could diagnose Aaron as a HS, they don't indicate in any way that Aaron had periodical attacks of psychosis that explain the Ripper murders taking place at the weekends, and they do not in any way indicate that Aaron was suffering from a condition that makes him more likely to have been the Ripper than anyone else

If you are trying to say that you've discovered that nothing negates Kosminski being the Ripper, then that's a bit pointless as we knew that already

There's nothing that negates Lewis Carroll being the Ripper is there?

I'll give you a clue in regard to HS and Kosminski - "impairment"

Regards

Nemo
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Old November 5th, 2011, 11:03 AM   #15
Jeff Leahy
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[COLOR="Navy"]Originally Posted by Nemo
Jeff, I'm not disputing Lars' work as I haven't seen it. I'm just disagreeing with you stating certain things as fact when they are in reality your incorrect interpretation of someone's opinion that you contradict at times


Regards

Nemo
You seem to be under some bizarre delussion that Schizophgrenics can be bashed into neat stereo types when nothing could be further from the truth.

And again you've failed to answer any of my questions. So we will simply have to wait and see what the hell it is your going on about.

I will try and reply when I have more time later.

But there is and has never been any contridiction in my position on Dr Lars.

He claims that Aaron was probably suffering a form of schizopphria called disorganised or hebophrenic.

This term is over simplistic as Hebophrenics can also be Paraniod and Aaron clearly was...

And the big problem is the term Schizophrenia inself which many experts would claim miss leading. The illness being more like SYNDROMES creating broad spectrums.

Anyway I'll just sit back and give you enough rope.

Yours Jeff
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Old November 5th, 2011, 12:23 PM   #16
Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO
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Well, I'll leave it to other readers to make up their minds about whether it is you or I who fails to answer questions. I think what I've said is quite clear, and what you are and have been saying is contradictory and at times incoherent, which, by coincidence may have been a trait Kosminski suffered from

You just put yourself forward again as a "sort of expert" due to your interest and years of research, yet you fail to understand the meaning of a basic term like "syndrome"

Anyway, to open the discussion to others, here's a modern definition of the symptoms present that would lead to a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia courtesy of www.schizophrenia.com

Feel free to chip in with any examples of hebephrenic schizophrenics you may have come across, whether diagnosed as such as part of a syndrome or otherwise

Paranoid Schizophrenia
Paranoid schizophrenia is the most common type of schizophrenia in most parts of the world. The clinical picture is dominated by relatively stable, often paranoid, delusions, usually accompanied by hallucinations, particularly of the auditory variety, and perceptual disturbances. Disturbances of affect, volition, and speech, and catatonic symptoms, are not prominent.

Examples of the most common paranoid symptoms are:

a) Delusions of persecution, reference, exalted birth, special mission, bodily change, or jealousy;

b) Hallucinatory voices that threaten the patient or give commands, or auditory hallucinations without verbal form, such as whistling, humming, or laughing;

c) Hallucinations of smell or taste, or of sexual or other bodily sensations; visual hallucinations may occur but are rarely predominant.

Thought disorder may be obvious in acute states, but if so it does not prevent the typical delusions or hallucinations from being described clearly.

Affect is usually less blunted than in other varieties of schizophrenia, but a minor degree of incongruity is common, as are mood disturbances such as irritability, sudden anger, fearfulness, and suspicion. "Negative" symptoms such as blunting of affect and impaired volition are often present but do not dominate the clinical picture.

The course of paranoid schizophrenia may be episodic, with partial or complete remissions, or chronic. In chronic cases, the florid symptoms persist over years and it is difficult to distinguish discrete episodes. The onset tends to be later than in the hebephrenic and catatonic forms.

Diagnostic Guidelines

The general criteria for a diagnosis of schizophrenia must be satisfied. In addition, hallucinations and/or delusions must be prominent, and disturbances of affect, volition and speech, and catatonic symptoms must be relatively inconspicuous.

The hallucinations will usually be of the kind described in (b) and (c) above

Delusions can be of almost any kind of delusions of control, influence, or passivity, and persecutory beliefs of various kinds are the most characteristic.

Includes:

paraphrenic schizophrenia

Differential diagnosis
It is important to exclude epileptic and drug-induced psychoses, and to remember that persecutory delusions might carry little diagnostic weight in people from certain countries or cultures.

Excludes:

Involutional paranoid state
Paranoia


Leaving Kosminski aside for a moment, what I am interested in (what I'm on about Jeff) is whether any suspect being a hebephrenic schizophrenic would in any way accentuate his candidacy for being the Ripper, or would it lessen the likelihood of his being the Ripper? Can we tell either way?

That was the original premise of the thread but Jeff is running around with the goalposts at the minute so it's probably a non-starter

The ferry back over the Rubicon costs quite a bit
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Old November 6th, 2011, 06:58 AM   #17
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What said nemo is that some experts in the feild are rethinking how schizophrenia works and that it might be a syndrome. This is a statement of fact not opinion.

'If schizophrenia is a clinical syndrome rather than a single disease, the identification of specific diseases within the syndrome would facilitate the advance of knowledge and the development of more specific treatments. We propose that deficit psychopathology (ie, enduring, idiopathic negative symptoms) defines a group of patients with a disease different from schizophrenia without deficit features, as the deficit and nondeficit groups differ in their signs and symptoms, course, biological correlates, treatment response, and etiologic factors. These differences cannot be attributed to more severe positive psychotic symptoms or a greater duration of illness in the deficit group. The alternative interpretation that patients with deficit schizophrenia are at the severe end of a single disease continuum is not supported by risk factor and biological features data, but there is a need for independent replication of these findings. We suggest a series of studies designed to falsify one of these hypotheses, ie, multiple diseases vs a single disease. '

What this means is that rather than pigeon holing people into specific groups patients can be placed on a spectrum.

'mechanisms that might cause schizophrenia. Other Sections
WHAT SORT OF DISCONNECTION SYNDROME?DYSFUNCTIONAL INTEGRATION OR SPECIALISATION?THE DISCONNECTION HYPOTHESISIMPLICATIONSCONCLUSIONReferencesWHAT SORT OF DISCONNECTION SYNDROME?The idea that dysfunctional integration underlies schizophrenia is as old as its name, coined by Bleuler (1) to denote the disintegration of psychic processes. The disconnection hypothesis considered here states that schizophrenia can be understood in cognitive terms, and in terms of pathophysiology, as a failure of functional integration within the brain. Functional integration refers to the interactions of functionally specialised systems (i.e., populations of neurons, cortical areas and sub-areas), that are required for adaptive sensorimotor integration, perceptual synthesis and cognition. Functional integration is mediated by the influence that the dynamics or activity of one neuronal system exerts over another and therefore rests on the connections among them. The pattern of connectivity is, in turn, a function of epigenetic activity and experience-dependent plasticity. The idea, developed below, is that the pathology of schizophrenia targets the modulation, facilitation or consolidation of changes in connection strength. This is distinct from an abnormality of plasticity per se and highlights aberrant regulation of where and when synaptic plasticity can occur. This dynamic regulation can be attributed, in part, to ascending modulatory neurotransmitter systems, like the dopaminergic system.The notion that psychosis can be explained by a pathology of extrinsic connections (cortico- cortical and cortico-subcortical connections that constitute white matter tracts) can be attributed to Wernicke, who referred to disruptions of these 'organs of connection'. This implies an anatomical disconnection. This is not the sort of disconnection syndrome proposed for schizophrenia. In schizophrenia, the disconnection is thought of as explicitly functional, not anatomical (2). More precisely, the disconnection is in terms of effective connectivity (3) as opposed to anatomical connectivity. The abnormal interactions among neuronal populations will clearly have infrastructural correlates, but these are likely to be expressed at the level of synaptic specialisations, cellular morphology and cytoarchitectonics, not necessarily at the level of white matter fasciculi.'

you nemo seem to have a fixed idea about schizophrenia while the rest of the world excepts very little is known about the illness and how it works.

'On the one hand, there is strong evidence that schizophrenia has a biological basis, because it runs in families, which indicates a genetic component. There are also subtle abnormalities in brain structure. Treatment with drugs, particularly those that target the neurotransmitter dopamine, can reduce the symptoms, but the mechanism of this effect is unknown and unfortunate side effects can and do occur.
On the other hand, the characteristic symptoms of schizophrenia are firmly in the domain of the mind. Patients report hallucinations (false perceptions) and delusions (false beliefs). A patient may hear his own thoughts spoken aloud or hear voices discussing him. A patient may believe that alien forces are controlling his or her actions or inserting thoughts into his or her mind. The challenge for the neuropsychologist is to show how a disorder in the brain can lead to these bizarre experiences. My own starting point for understanding schizophrenia is the observation that, in some cases, the "voices" that patients hear are clearly their own. This observation puts the problem in a slightly different light: the question is not why patients hear voices, but why they mistake their own voice for that of someone else. This question applies to other symptoms as well. For example, patients with delusions of control report that their movements are alien; they feel as if they were being made by someone else. This is not as startling as it may at first appear. After all, every action we perform causes changes in our sensations. When we speak, we hear the sound of our own voice. When we move our arm, there are changes in kinesthetic and tactile sensations. But there is nothing in the nature of these sensations that distinguishes them from signals caused by external events - the sound of someone else's voice, someone else lifting our arm.'

We should have an open mind to the possible causes and effects of the illnees. Dt Lars used the term hebophrenic as it is a generally used catigory that people can understand. i will give the list of hebophrenic traits later. but by and large i personally agree with his accessment.

Dr X was far less willing to commit. As i've alreadt explained ands will go into more detail, some of the traits attributed to aaron dont fit. But thats probably because the three catigories you are trying to false on us are woe fully inadiquate. I will continue later.
yours jeff
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Old November 6th, 2011, 08:04 AM   #18
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i will give the list of hebophrenic traits later. but by and large i personally agree with his accessment.

Dr X was far less willing to commit. As i've alreadt explained ands will go into more detail, some of the traits attributed to aaron dont fit. But thats probably because the three catigories you are trying to false on us are woe fully inadiquate. I will continue later
Finally some headway - thanks Jeff, I look forward to it

Is that supposed to read "force" instead of "false"? Either way it is incorrect, I'm not trying to push anything, and it's not my fault if the categories are inadequate is it?

I'm not presumptuous enough to make one of my own so I have to rely on the most up to date information from the psychological experts (Which now classes these symptoms as "disorganised schizophrenia" rather than "hebephrenic schizophrenia")

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of your previous confidence in the premise that Kosminski being a hebephrenic schizophrenic somehow increases his chance of being the Ripper, and trying to assess how Aaron was diagnosed as suffering from HS in the first place

It's you making varied assertions that gives the appearance of someone trying to force an opinion on others

However, your confidence seems to have dropped somewhat...

In reference to Dr Lars - "...by and large i personally agree with his accessment""

In reference to "Dr X" - "Dr X was far less willing to commit"

In reference to Aaron and HS - "some of the traits attributed to aaron dont fit"

That is simply what I've been saying from the start and for which you seemed to get upset and aggressive over, slating my opinion as worthless against that of an "expert"

It's also obvious to anyone with a brain that generally schizophrenia is a syndromic affliction

It's not me that has sub-categorised it further is it?

If experts have formulated a set of symptoms and labelled it hebephrenic schizophrenia, then we are able to assess that aspect in regard to Kosminski according to diagnostic guidelines, and as you (now) say, some traits don't fit

Do you know how many of the listed traits are required to be present to enable a diagnosis of hebrephenic schizophrenia?

I'm surprised if don't know these facts off the top of your head since you've studied Dr Lars work enough to enable you to agree only in parts, together with your statement that you've studied mental illness for years and am some sort of expert in the subject

I suppose we'll just have to wait for you to swot up on the internet

I'm expecting a cut/copy/paste type of answer because you seem unable to express your own opinion, even though it will be accepted graciously because I will take you at your word and put some faith in your opinion, as you are a self-proclaimed expert in the subject with years of specialisation behind you, whereas I realise that I'm just the amateurish Nemo whose opinion counts for very little

However, if you think that an expert's opinion stands just because of his expertise and qualifications, then your years of Ripper studies have been wasted - it does explain to me though why you latch onto Anderson's assessment because, unable to form a conclusion of your own, it enables you to assert something with confidence, referring questioners to the original speaker rather than being able to counter any argument yourself by way of reasoning
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Old November 6th, 2011, 02:19 PM   #19
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Is that supposed to read "force" instead of "false"? Either way it is incorrect, I'm not trying to push anything, and it's not my fault if the categories are inadequate is it?
Yes you are. Your trying to TICK boxes. Does he have the slur, does he stand on one foot and say 'bibble' ? ah then he must fit box A, B and F.

You cant approach an illness like schizophrenia in this way as people suffering the illness rarely fit into neatly defined boxes.

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I'm not presumptuous enough to make one of my own so I have to rely on the most up to date information from the psychological experts (Which now classes these symptoms as "disorganised schizophrenia" rather than "hebrephenic schizophrenia")
OK you've read a couple of internet sites and discovered hebophrenic and disorganized schizophrenia are one and the same. I just have a feeling Dr Lars was aware of that.

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I'm just trying to get to the bottom of your previous confidence in the premise that Kosminski being a hebrephenic schizophrenic somehow increases his chance of being the Ripper, and trying to assess how Aaron was diagnosed as suffering from HS in the first place
Well this is pretty simple really Hebophrenic schizophrenia is one of the catigories considered potentially dangerous and Dr Lars places Aaron in that catigory. Simple.

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It's you making varied assertions that gives the appearance of someone trying to force an opinion on others
NO . its you trying to tick boxes and miss understanding schizophrenia as an illness. The three original catigories given to schizophrenia by Bleuler one hundred years ago have moved on, they were expanded to eight and as I have repeatedly tried to explain recently been suggested as a Syndrome rather than a single illness.

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However, your confidence seems to have dropped somewhat...
No it hasnt.

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In reference to Dr Lars - "...by and large i personally agree with his accessment""
Dr Lars was asked to give his accessment to camera for a channel FIVE audience. He tried to keep that accessment in simple terms that were clear.

Arons age 22. Many of his symptoms and his later condition and burn out are all fairly typical of Hebophrenic schizophrenia. I see no reason to despute his conclussion.

What you seem tro be arguing is that Hebophrenics cant also be Paraniod, and while I'd except its less common with HS suffers its not unheard of.

Thus I see4 no reason to disagree with Dr Lars accessment

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In reference to "Dr X" - "Dr X was far less willing to commit"
Dr X was asked to look at Aarons case notes in private, and was giving his experience from various case studies.

Not everything that either expert was in total agreement but then they had different briefs. And experts in all fields do from time to time have differences.

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In reference to Aaron and HS - "some of the traits attributed to aaron dont fit"
Yes I've consistantly argued that Aaron Kosminski appears to have traits not typical of Hebophrenic Schizophrenia or Schizophrenia in general. I've also agrued that this isnt surprising as individual case studies arnt a question of Box ticking as Nemo seems to beleive. Every case is different and requires accessment on its own merits.

By and large Schizophrenics have low sex drives. There are references to Aaron suffering compulsive masturbation and there might be more than one reason for this but it certainly isnt a question of box ticking.

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That is simply what I've been saying from the start and for which you seemed to get upset and aggressive over, slating my opinion as worthless against that of an "expert"
No. It is you that have been constistantly agressive throughout this exchange. Largely because you seem to want simplistic answers to a complex set of questions.

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It's also obvious to anyone with a brain that generally schizophrenia is a syndromic affliction

It's not me that has sub-categorised it further is it?
It was you that said schizophrenia had nothing to do with Syndromes and pooh poohed me. When I responded by giving you information to the contary you accused me of internet searching. Theres no pleasing some people is there?

Again the three catigories you are quoting were first cioned in 1911!

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If experts have formulated a set of symptoms and labelled it hebrephenic schizophrenia, then we are able to assess that aspect in regard to Kosminski according to diagnostic guidelines, and as you (now) say, some traits don't fit
No I'm saying that Dr Lars used those terms because they are generally recognised. They have been used for 100 years. However modern research has speculated a far more complex outline of possibilities. A spectrum range that may not fit standard boxes.

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Do you know how many of the listed traits are required to be present to enable a diagnosis of hebrephenic schizophrenia?
There you go box ticking again. Its fairly simple to google hebophrenic schizophrenia and gain a list. Aaron fits many of those traits. The most important being his age and general development of his illness which is fairly typical of those atributed to hebophrenic schizophrenia (Hebophenic coming from the greek goddess of youth) Paraniod schizophrenics tend to be older but as I've pointed out consistantly and you have continued to ignore hebophrenic Schizophrenics can occationally exhibbit paraniod behaviour.

'He is guided by an instinct and claims he knows the where abouts of all mankind'

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I'm surprised if don't know these facts off the top of your head since you've studied Dr Lars work enough to enable you to agree only in parts, together with your statement that you've studied mental illness for years and am some sort of expert in the subject
Actually I've consistantly said that I spent considerable time studying Aarons case with Dr X.

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I suppose we'll just have to wait for you to swot up on the internet
I suppose we'll just have to wait for you to have a personality transplant.

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I'm expecting a cut/copy/paste type of answer because you seem unable to express your own opinion, even though it will be accepted graciously because I will take you at your word and put some faith in your opinion, as you are a self-proclaimed expert in the subject with years of specialisation behind you, whereas I realise that I'm just the amateurish Nemo whose opinion counts for very little
I cut a copied a reply demonstrating that new thinking on schizophrenia has given a much wider set of thinking than that possed by Bleuler a hundred years ago....and insidently following a post that you had cut a paisted.

Hypocracy

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
However, if you think that an expert's opinion stands just because of his expertise and qualifications, then your years of Ripper studies have been wasted -
I lissen to expert opinion where it is good. I see nothing in Dr Lars conclussion which is out of sink with what is known about Aaron. The fact that he explained that in fairly simple terms to a channel FIVE tv audience I see only to his credit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
it does explain to me though why you latch onto Anderson's assessment because, unable to form a conclusion of your own, it enables you to assert something with confidence, referring questioners to the original speaker rather than being able to counter any argument yourself by way of reasoning
I refer you to Dr Lars accessment because it seems reasonable. I've at no time ever suggest that it might not be more complicated.

What you seem intend on doing is ticking boxes on an illness that is far more complex than you are willing to accept.

You have now woffled and blithered on for several posts and failed to actually out line where and why you believe Dr Lars to be incorrect.

Indeed your lack of any contribution on the subject is becoming somewhat annoying.

YOurs Jeff
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Old November 7th, 2011, 06:49 AM   #20
Jeff Leahy
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According to Medilexicon's medical dictionary:

Disorganized schizophrenia is A severe form of schizophrenia characterized by the predominance of incoherence, blunted, inappropriate, or silly affect, and the absence of systematized delusions.
What are the signs and symptoms of disorganized schizophrenia?

Disorganized thinking - the patient is unable to form coherent or logical thoughts. This inability affects speech - during a conversation the individual cannot stick to the subject, and leaps from one disparate subject to another. The speech problem may become so severe that it is perceived as unintelligible garble (a muddle of sounds) to those around him/her. Writing is also severely affected by disorganized thinking.

Grossly disorganized behavior - these symptoms may be so severe that the patient is unable to perform regular daily activities, such as bathing, dressing properly and preparing meals. For example, during a warm day the individual may put on several layers of clothing. There may be unprovoked agitation, or sexual behavior in public. Grossly disorganized behavior may feel normal to the person with schizophrenia, but appears bizarre to those around them.

Behaviors may vary from being child-like and silly, to aggressive and violent.
Inappropriate or lacking emotional expression (flat affect) - flat affect, also known as blunted affect, is sometimes a symptom of people with severe depression or schizophrenia - the individual may show the signs of normal emotion, may even talk with a monotonous voice. However, the face appears blank, facial expressions are significantly diminished. The patient appears extremely apathetic. There may be no eye contact with other people or any display of body language. On some occasions the individual may display behavior with is not appropriate for given situations - this may include bursting out laughing during a serious event.

Apart from the above, which are examples of disorganized schizophrenia symptoms, the patients may also have the following signs and symptoms of schizophrenia:

Delusions - The patient has false beliefs of persecution, guilt of grandeur. He/she may feel things are being controlled from outside. It is not uncommon for people with schizophrenia to describe plots against them. They may think they have extraordinary powers and gifts. Some patients with schizophrenia may hide in order to protect themselves from an imagined persecution. According to Medilexicon's medical dictionary: a delusion is A false belief or wrong judgment, sometimes associated with hallucinations, held with conviction despite evidence to the contrary.

Hallucinations - hearing voices is much more common than seeing, feeling, tasting, or smelling things which are not there, but seem very genuine to the patient.

Social withdrawal - when a patient with schizophrenia withdraws socially it is often because he/she believes somebody is going to harm them. Other reasons could be a fear of interacting with other humans because of poor social skills.

Unaware of illness - as the hallucinations and delusions seem so real for the patients, many of them may not believe they are ill. They may refuse to take medications which could help them enormously for fear of side-effects, for example.

Cognitive difficulties - the patient's ability to concentrate, remember things, plan ahead, and to organize himself/herself are affected. Communication becomes more difficult.

There may also be grimacing, bizarre postures, problems functioning at school/work, and clumsy/uncoordinated movements.


The above symptoms cover the illness Hebophrenic or disorganized schizophrenia.

Most of these traits can be recognised in what is known about Aaron Kosminski. In most situations people suffering this illness are NOT dangerous, or only a danger to themselves. In very rare and exceptional circumstance they can become very dangerous indeed. Normally because of other external circumstance, such as alcohol or drugs of some form or another.

Yours Jeff
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