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20. Schizophrenia "Schizophrenia was first identified about 1806. This might be something to think about as we ponder whether the man who was Jack the Ripper could have been a schizophrenic.” - Christopher George

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Old November 7th, 2011, 07:12 AM   #21
Jeff Leahy
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Early signs
Sometimes the illness starts suddenly with an acute, and often frightening, episode of psychosis.
However, a first episode of psychosis is often heralded by what health professionals call a ‘prodromal period’ when people’s behaviour begins to change.
People are often depressed or anxious, may find it difficult to concentrate or have problems remembering things, stop seeing their friends, act in a strange and uncharacteristic way, be less interested in study, work or hobbies and care less about how they look. They may become socially withdrawn and spend much more time alone.
They also sometimes have experiences resembling the symptoms of psychosis – hearing voices every now and then, being occasionally suspicious and paranoid for example (see Paranoia page). Not everyone who has these sort of experiences will go on to have a first episode of psychosis. A large proportion of people who do have an initial episode will get better with treatment. Others will improve but may have further episodes.


When considering Aaron Kosminski's condition it is important to remember how the illness develops.

At different stages of the illness different symptoms may appear worse. Because if untreated Schizophrenia is a progressive illness which eventually leads to a catatonic state known as Burn Out.

The illness typically advances in stages known as Psychotic episodes. These can typically last for periods of 18-22 weeks. Although the patient can appear to get better these 'psychotic' episodes if untreated will progress in there severity.

So its important to remember that Aaron would have had different levels of functionallity at different stages of the illness.

ie we are NOT dealing with a one size fits all, but a progressive and changing illness.

Yours Jeff
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Old November 7th, 2011, 08:08 AM   #22
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Just while we are on the subject I thought I'd double check Dr Lars statement and he clearly qualifies himself as follows:

The diagnosis I've reached, also taking into account what happened further down the line, is that he suffered a form of schizophrenia, which I would call hebophrenic schizophrenia. People suffering schizophrenia are not more likely than other people in society to commit violent crime."

In other words Dr Lars clearly qualifies his diagnosis by Aaron's later syptoms which one might argue are more Catotonic than paranoid.

I'll just reproduce the exact wording of Aaron's comital notes:

"He declares that he is guided and his movements altogether controlled by an instinct that informs his mind, He says he knows the where about's of all mankind."

This stage of Aaron's illness is obviously different to his later state, and is qualified by Dr Lars as "a form of Schizophrenia"

Schizophrenia can indeed take many forms but I see no reason to argue against Dr lars broad accessment.

One should also take on board that it has been argued extensively that Aaron was NOT Schizophrenic but suffering other illnesses such as bipolar and obsessive compulsive syndrome.

So pinning Aaron's illness to schizophrenic is an import start to understanding how. when, and why his illness may have functioned

Yours Jeff
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Old November 7th, 2011, 11:26 AM   #23
Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO
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There's nothing wrong with searching the internet for information Jeff, I do it all the time

What I was commenting on is your claim to be a psychiatric expert and your familiarity with the claims of Dr Davidson, so why would you need to search the internet just to respond to a few questions which relate to opinions you have already expressed?

I'm quite capable of finding the references you've posted thanks

It's clear you have a basic misunderstanding about how mental or physical conditions are able to be diagnosed

There are certain characteristics that denote a condition and noting and identifying these characteristics is akin to "ticking boxes". What else can it be? Certainly there is some leeway in the diagnosis, especially with mental conditions, but in general the affliction will so fit a set of symptoms as to be able to be labelled as a known condition

I never said Dr Davidson's was wrong Jeff, though I, as you seem to be doing now, would question whether the diagnosis of hebephrenic schizophrenia is able to be made to the exclusion of all other possible mental illnesses

What I'm challenging is your interpretation of Dr Davidson's statements, and only with a view to clarifying whether there is any actual significance in Kosminski being a hebephrenic schizophrenic in regard to the Ripper case which may or may not have been expressed by a learned expert such as Dr Davidson

Subsequent to your claims...

Is a hebephrenic schizophrenic the most likely sub-category of schizophrenic to have committed the Ripper crimes or not?

Being only possibly violent applies to most of the population doesn't it? mentally ill or otherwise

Is hebephrenic schizophrenia the most potentially dangerous type of schizophrenia or not?

How does hebephrenic schizophrenia rather than any other mental illness explain the periodic violence of the Ripper crimes?

Would a hebephrenic schizophrenic be able to interact with the victims in such a manner that they were happy to solicit him?

I've asked you this already but you skirt the issue or contradict yourself, so there's no reason for me to spend time countering your argument because you haven't got one, or refuse to elaborate on it

If you are able to show that your opinions match those of Dr Davidson, then I could fully understand your observations and will apologise and take up the issue elsewhere

However, I'm already satisfied by your responses that there is no such significance except in your own mind and IMO Dr Davidson is unlikely to have come to those conclusions

Anyway, just to help you out a little with some of my own observations in regard to Kosminski being a possible hebephrenic schizophrenic

Kosminski compulsively masturbating (indulging in solitary vices) might just refer to him pulling his plonker in public with no real reference to what he does when alone

Therefore he might be just exposing himself as an example of inappropriate behaviour which is a symptom of hebephrenic schizophrenia

It's mentioned in the symptoms of HS that I laid out for you from www.schizophrenia.com thus... "Their behavior may be bizarre, such as wearing layer upon layer of clothing in the middle of summer. Or, their behavior may be grossly inappropriate, such as acting out sexually in public"

If Kosminski suffered from this affliction and he was also BS man, then the exclamation of "Lipski" may be explained by it being something that entered his mind during a violent attack on a woman, disjointed words and speech also being a symptom

Suffering from schizophrenia may also produce a strange gait, which may also explain the manner of walking of BS man

Let's assume for a moment that Kosminski is a hebephrenic schizophrenic and can also be identified as BS man

Stride is still a contentious Ripper victim and, despite your claims that the Ripper used a different MO with each victim in order to accentuate that a schizophrenic Kosminski might be the culprit, there are consistencies in the MO with Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes and probably Kelly that go against the idea that the Ripper was disorganised in his thinking and unable to retain a train of thought in relation to his MO over a period of weeks

IMO identifying the killer of Stride as a hebephrenic schizophrenic, Kosminski or otherwise, would help negate her candidacy as a Ripper victim

Yours

Nemo
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Old November 7th, 2011, 01:32 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
There's nothing wrong with searching the internet for information Jeff, I do it all the time
Yes , but one must also have a brain and some knowledge while making google decessions. And some idea what it is your looking for. You appear to have neither.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
What I was commenting on is your claim to be a psychiatric expert
When have I ever made this claim? What I have said is that it is an area of Ripperology I'm interested in, and I have spoken to a number of experts on the subject. However you might define 'Expert'. Stop trying to lie about others posistions its very poor form.

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
and your familiarity with the claims of Dr Davidson, so why would you need to search the internet just to respond to a few questions which relate to opinions you have already expressed?
I have carefully given you what Dr Lars said. I suggest you go back and read it.

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
I'm quite capable of finding the references you've posted thanks
I'm beginning to wonder? I suggest you read them then.

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
It's clear you have a basic misunderstanding about how mental or physical conditions are able to be diagnosed
NO I DONT. It is you that are being deliberately half witted. I clearly stated that to give a specific diagnosis the psychiatrist would need to spend one to one time with the patient. So we were dealing with possibility rather than specifics. Pay attension.

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
There are certain characteristics that denote a condition and noting and identifying these characteristics is akin to "ticking boxes". What else can it be? Certainly there is some leeway in the diagnosis, especially with mental conditions, but in general the affliction will so fit a set of symptoms as to be able to be labelled as a known condition
Rubbish. You are dealing with a spectrum which varies from individual to individual you can NOT tick boxes. No two cases are identical which is why it was much more informative looking at individual case studies rather than blanket syptoms that can vary considerably from case to case.

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
I never said Dr Davidson's was wrong Jeff,
Thanks god for that we are finally getting somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
though I, as you seem to be doing now, would question whether the diagnosis of hebephrenic schizophrenia is able to be made to the exclusion of all other possible mental illnesses
You'll have top ask Dr Davidson as I have repeatedly said. You seem to be looking at a list and because not everything on that list fits, assuming Dr Davidson might be wrong.

I'm simply saying that Schizophrenia is a degenorative illness so while the sufferer may fit certain traits at certain times over teh corse of that illness the sufferer may change considerably. Something you seem unable to take on board with your fixed box ticking stand piont.

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
What I'm challenging is your interpretation of Dr Davidson's statements, and only with a view to clarifying whether there is any actual significance in Kosminski being a hebephrenic schizophrenic in regard to the Ripper case which may or may not have been expressed by a learned expert such as Dr Davidson

Subsequent to your claims...
Dr Davidson reached the conclusion that Aaron Kosminski was a Hebophrenic Schizophrenic. FACT

I see no reason to question his accessment given what is known about Hebophrenic schizophrenia.

Hebophrenic Schizophrenics are potencially dangerous (though most commonly not)

Dr X was clear that he would expect some additional catalist if some were to become dangerous (drugs Alcohol)

I have pionted out repeatedly that the Ripper crimes are very rare. But in my opinion Hebophrenic Schizophrenia is a good match for this type of crime.

Though I admit I can find few statistics to support that statement as Ripper crimes are so rare there are few statistics on the subject. But thats not my fault NEMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
Is a hebephrenic schizophrenic the most likely sub-category of schizophrenic to have committed the Ripper crimes or not?
Yes I think it is....but as I've just said there are few statistics on this kind of serial killer. Hebophrenics making up between 10 and 15% of the schizophrenic spectrum, the majority of who are completely harmless.

Paraniods are even rarer 1-2%....

The rest lets guess 83% are unlikely to commit lust style serial killings.

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
Being only possibly violent applies to most of the population doesn't it? mentally ill or otherwise
Ah! the pennys finally droped well done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
Is hebephrenic schizophrenia the most potentially dangerous type of schizophrenia or not?
I've given that answer several times now. Hebophrenic's are potentially dangerous.

I've not seen reliable statistical information to suggest one type of serial killer is more or less likely than another to commit this very rare type of murder. So rare I doubt that there is reliable statistical information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
How does hebephrenic schizophrenia rather than any other mental illness explain the periodic violence of the Ripper crimes?
What I claimed is that 'psychotic episodes' familiar with all types of schizophrenia (and I've also stated there may only be one type, better discrbed as various sybdromes) may explain the 18 - 22 week period known as teh autumn of terror.

Psychotic episodes arnt unique to hebophrenic or Paraniod. But Aarons age would be more likely to suggest the early stages of Hebophrenic.

Aaron's ability to function in this period can only be guessed at. But as I've said and you've continually rejected, we can only say what might be possible from other cases.

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
Would a hebephrenic schizophrenic be able to interact with the victims in such a manner that they were happy to solicit him?
Its a possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
I've asked you this already but you skirt the issue or contradict yourself, so there's no reason for me to spend time countering your argument because you haven't got one, or refuse to elaborate on it
Your now throwing your toys out the pram. I've given you a straight answer.

You have no counter answer or position obviously.

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
If you are able to show that your opinions match those of Dr Davidson, then I could fully understand your observations and will apologise and take up the issue elsewhere
Dr Davidson claimed Aaron Kosminski was a Hebophrenic Schizophrenic.

I have said I see NO REASON to dispute that claim.

this is very simple NEMO.

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
However, I'm already satisfied by your responses that there is no such significance except in your own mind and IMO Dr Davidson is unlikely to have come to those conclusions
Dr Lars Davidson independantly reach the conclussion that Aaron was suffering hebophrenic Schizophrenia. He draw that conclussion largely from Aarons later medical condition, as I previously posted.

Dr X did not go so far simply stating Aaron was suffering a form of schizophrenia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
Anyway, just to help you out a little with some of my own observations in regard to Kosminski being a possible hebephrenic schizophrenic

Kosminski compulsively masturbating (indulging in solitary vices) might just refer to him pulling his plonker in public with no real reference to what he does when alone

Therefore he might be just exposing himself as an example of inappropriate behaviour which is a symptom of hebephrenic schizophrenia
Then we have to consider what is said by Anderson and McNaughten. Compulsive masturbation seems to be a key link. And yes inapropriate behaviour can be as you say a syptom of hebophrenic Schizophrenia.

To my knowledge there is no mention of this after his comital. Dr X stated that low sex drive was more typical of sschizophrenia, but then schizophrenia if untreated is a progressive illness something you seem unable to grasp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
It's mentioned in the symptoms of HS that I laid out for you from www.schizophrenia.com thus... "Their behavior may be bizarre, such as wearing layer upon layer of clothing in the middle of summer. Or, their behavior may be grossly inappropriate, such as acting out sexually in public"
So it would be a possible fit...yes

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
If Kosminski suffered from this affliction and he was also BS man, then the exclamation of "Lipski" may be explained by it being something that entered his mind during a violent attack on a woman, disjointed words and speech also being a symptom
It could be. But as I have made clear nothing can actually be gleaned from this statement without knowing its context. Its all guess work.

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
Suffering from schizophrenia may also produce a strange gait, which may also explain the manner of walking of BS man
Yep your correct, or BS could have just been drunk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
Let's assume for a moment that Kosminski is a hebephrenic schizophrenic and can also be identified as BS man

Stride is still a contentious Ripper victim
Only in your opinion. She is one of the Cannon. Swanson considered her a victim. Perhaps Kosminski killed Stride and not the others but I'd say that was statistically unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
and, despite your claims that the Ripper used a different MO with each victim in order to accentuate that a schizophrenic Kosminski might be the culprit, there are consistencies in the MO with Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes and probably Kelly that go against the idea that the Ripper was disorganised in his thinking and unable to retain a train of thought in relation to his MO over a period of weeks
Well yes there are similarities Smith to Coles they were all prostitutes.

Yet there are distinct differences.

All I've said is that there is no reason to believe Serial killers dont adapt their MO to suit their purpose and Goals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
IMO identifying the killer of Stride as a hebephrenic schizophrenic, Kosminski or otherwise, would help negate her candidacy as a Ripper victim

Yours Nemo
I've never said it would. I've simply said that its another interesting peice of the jigsaw puzzle....

Trying to draw comparison between Lewis Carol and Aaron Kosminski is breath taking in its stupidity.

What we are dealing with is the claim by two senior policeman that a seemingly harmless imbacial was Jack the Ripper. A claim pooh poohed by many of my greatest heros including Martin Fido, who have suggested Jack the Ripper if mad would have been obviously violent...

What I have suggested is that Aaron Kosminski durring early stages of his illness could have possibly commited these crimes. Even though his asylum records show him as harmless..Its a possibility.

Lewis Carrol.........Bar humbug

Yours Jeff
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Old November 7th, 2011, 01:37 PM   #25
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Lets keep the train on track ...and discuss the issue without personal shots over this, shall we ?
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Old November 7th, 2011, 01:44 PM   #26
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Lets keep the train on track ...and discuss the issue without personal shots over this, shall we ?
Fine by me Howard. I only send them back, its not cool to open fire.

Yours Jeff
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Old November 7th, 2011, 02:00 PM   #27
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I have just noticed the quote at the head of this thread:

Quote:
20. Schizophrenia "Schizophrenia was first identified about 1806. This might be something to think about as we ponder whether the man who was Jack the Ripper could have been a schizophrenic.” - Christopher George
I don't remember ever writing or uttering these words. I have said and written many memorable things but my mind is a blank slate as to whether I have ever used these words. Is it a different Christopher George? Where did the quote come from? Since Nemo started the thread, maybe Nemo can answer. This enquiring mind wishes to know. Thanks in advance.

Cheers

Chris
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Old November 7th, 2011, 02:04 PM   #28
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CG:

You'll have to ask Tim, because he added all the little comments and quotes which accompany the Motives & Reasons threads...
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Old November 7th, 2011, 02:16 PM   #29
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http://www.schizophrenia.com/history.htm

This link gives a pretty good background to the History of Schizophrenia.

My suggestion that modern thinking is suggesting schizophrenia is more akin to a series of syndromes, came from an interesting set of programs on radio four a couple of years ago. But I've been unable to find the links...I will keep looking.

Yours Jeff
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Old November 7th, 2011, 02:39 PM   #30
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I've just been trying to think of a way to explain why some syptom's of Schizophrenia might match and others might be different.

Although different I suffer a condition called dyslexia which is fairly common, but effects people in different ways. The reason for this is taht it is different parts or conections to the brain which are damaged.

So though many people experience Dyslexia (which is not cureable) There illnesses are unique to the individual. My particualr problem is with certain letter combinations which appear identical to me (ie-ei and io-oi).

Yet I have no problems with maths or pyshic's...I just cant spell.

My sister who writes for a living cant tell left from right and I have a nephew who is a qualified lawyer who doesnt know the months of the year. Dyslexia has many forms and syptoms some of which match some of which dont.

Although different, Schizophrenia also effects different parts of the brain, often runs in families and expresses itself in different ways to different people. If untreated it is also degenerative so different syptoms may arrise or disappear as the illness progresses. You dont wake up one morning a fully formed Hebophrenic, it takes years (if untreated) to develop through various phazes which again will differ from individual to individual.

The syptoms placed on websites are guide lines not fixed rules. Only individual accessment by a qualified person can give a accurate diagnosis and possible individual treatment which will vary from individual to individual.

You cant think of an illness like schizophrenia in the same way as the measles, mumps or catching the flue. And even then physical illnesses will affect people differently.

Trust that helps

Yours Jeff
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