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Old April 3rd, 2013, 12:44 PM   #1
Howard Brown
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Default The Line In The Sand : Ripper Victim Or Not

Tom Wescott and I were discussing Stride last night as to reasons she should or shouldn't be considered a victim of the Whitechapel Murderer.

Tom is on the side of her inclusion in the list, which I like to call the Bond Girls ( To hell with Macnaghten's list...)...those being Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, Stride, Kelly...and soon after, McKenzie)..the list Dr. Thomas Bond put together in late 1888.

I personally agree with Dr. Bond's list with the sole exception of Liz Stride being a victim at this point in time and with the inclusion of Tabram ). In a year, who knows, maybe I'll agree with Tom.

While my primary objection to her being considered a Ripper victim rests on the way Broad Shoulders Man is stated to have jostled her on the pavement in front of the IWEMC and apparently oblivious to his surroundings ( 100 people inside the Club..a well inhabited street, etc..), a situation which is is not to be found in any other recognized Ripper murder....I recognize that this might have been the exception to a rule. For once, the killer lost his cool and threw caution to the wind.

Tom doesn't seem to think much of this objection. Here's his response to my view on another thread :

I think that's one of the worst reasons for counting Liz out, no offense intended. ( 1 ) And I don't see BS Man's behavior as particularly bodacious or out of keeping with any of the other murders. ( 2) What Schwartz describes he saw is what Cadosch described he heard, for instance. And Chapman and Stride were consecutive victims, both killed in a yard next to the exit. That's a tall order to ask for a coincidental killing; ( 3 ) add the Eddowes murder to the mix and I see it as almost impossible to exclude Stride as a one-off. ( 4 ) And I do think it likely that BS Man and Pipe Man were in cahoots based on what Schwartz describes and the fact that this is how it appeared to him in the moment. From the perspective of BS Man, Pipeman was tending to the little Jewish witness who would almost certainly not go to the police, whereas the woman he knocked down absolutely would, ( 5 ) so what choice did he have but to kill her? However, he wasn't so bodacious as to linger at the scene once he had.

************************************

( 1) While Tom doesn't see any significant difference in the crime scenes, I do.
Nichols murdered in silence. Tabram murdered in silence. Eddowes murdered in silence. Chapman's murder, with the exception of the noises Cadosch heard, the bump on the fence and the word "No" uttered, are the closest but by no means close to Stride "screaming" ( probably yelping, not a true scream and being seen thrown to the ground. I let the reader draw his own conclusion.

(2) As I had mentioned on the original post in a postscript, the only other murder in which the sound of a physical altercation occurred was in Hanbury Street ( Kelly's murder indoors, with the cry of "Oh Murder !" was, after all indoors, relatively safer than outdoors and excluded from this comparison ). Cadosch apparently thought little of the idea of looking over the fence as the sounds were not significant enough to warrant a look. What Schwartz claims he saw scared him....therefore, Cadosch's experience in no way mirrors that of Schwartz's...in my view.

( 3) While Stride may very well have been a Ripper victim...using Eddowes' murder as some sort of gauge is not the means to solidify Stride's place in the canon of victims,in my view. We think the Case as a whole most of the time...and incrementally at other times. This is an instance where our study should take each individual murder on its own merit, not on the actuality of another even as close as Mitre Square was.

(4 ) Pipeman's presence has less to do with the Stride murder, in my view, than some people make of it. Schwartz, in a frightened state, may have naturally over reacted and theorized very quickly to being the "man in the middle" of what could have been a situation of two fellows in cahoots with each other beating up a woman. Then again, Pipeman and BSM may have been in cahoots...with Pipeman running off. leaving his friend behind ?
I'm not buying that one.
Until further factual, not speculative, data surfaces which links both Pipeman and BSM together....I feel we can do no more than speculate that they may have known each other. Even then, even if they did know each other, what we know of the Ripper so far is that he worked alone. That might strike a blow against Stride's candidacy all by itself, imho.

(5) This conclusion of Tom's, about BSM having no choice but to kill Stride, asks the reader to get inside the assailant's head. That we cannot do...or at least I cannot do...without using our own, personal imaginative powers, which will probably differ to the degree that our answers will not be the same.
I know if I was planning on murdering someone or put into an ever- developing situation where I wanted to kill someone...there "choice" becomes null and void...after the decision is made in my mind to kill, choice goes out the window....I would do so with the least amount of living souls around who might identify me...which is zero.
This did not happen in Berner Street.

Back to you Tom.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 03:14 PM   #2
Robert Linford
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Could I just raise a question here? Wasn't there some discussion a few years ago about a noise from the Tabram murder? I'm afraid that's all I can remember about it - that there was some kind of source for there being a noise.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 03:45 PM   #3
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Bob:
I apologize for making it appear this was a two man debate...by all means, everyone should contribute !
One of the married couple ( the wife ) living 12 feet away from where Martha was found heard the cry of "Murder", but as we find in the Kelly murder, the cry was apparently so common that the woman thought little of it and couldn't state whether the cry came from within the building or not.

On a side note..just imagine that cry being that common and you, the reader, not reacting to it.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 04:26 PM   #4
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Thanks How. "Murder" again. It sounds rather hysterical to cry "Murder" if there was no murder. On the other hand, people did cry "Murder" when they were actually being murdered.

I'm not sure whether "Murder" was ever whispered.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 04:50 PM   #5
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Bob:
You've reminded me to double check something...thanks.
When I said murdered "in silence" I meant without audible struggle or reported audible struggle.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 05:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Linford View Post
Could I just raise a question here? Wasn't there some discussion a few years ago about a noise from the Tabram murder? I'm afraid that's all I can remember about it - that there was some kind of source for there being a noise.
Tom Wescott wrote a short piece in the WS Journal about this.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 10:12 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Linford View Post
Could I just raise a question here? Wasn't there some discussion a few years ago about a noise from the Tabram murder? I'm afraid that's all I can remember about it - that there was some kind of source for there being a noise.
Hi Robert. You're thinking of my article 'The Silence of Violence' which I published some years back in the WSJ. It's a short piece and you can find it under Casebook Dissertations. I think it might actually be on this site somewhere as well.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 10:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown
While my primary objection to her being considered a Ripper victim rests on the way Broad Shoulders Man is stated to have jostled her on the pavement in front of the IWEMC and apparently oblivious to his surroundings ( 100 people inside the Club..a well inhabited street, etc..), a situation which is is not to be found in any other recognized Ripper murder....I recognize that this might have been the exception to a rule. For once, the killer lost his cool and threw caution to the wind.
The number of people in the club was just over 20, so nowhere near 100. There was much noise coming from the windows and less reason for him to have been silent. However, according to all those on the street, the murder was quite silent. And your observation accepts as fact that a) BS Man existed, and b) he killed Stride. Neither are facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown
( 1) While Tom doesn't see any significant difference in the crime scenes, I do.
Nichols murdered in silence. Tabram murdered in silence. Eddowes murdered in silence. Chapman's murder, with the exception of the noises Cadosch heard, the bump on the fence and the word "No" uttered, are the closest but by no means close to Stride "screaming" ( probably yelping, not a true scream and being seen thrown to the ground. I let the reader draw his own conclusion.
You say the killer threw caution to the wind in Berner Street, and I can’t disagree with that, because it seems to me he did so at every crime scene. The most dangerous of all was Hanbury Street, where it was light out and people would be using the privy and he would have to maneuver his way past any oncomers to escape through a narrow passage into an increasingly busy street. Meanwhile, if Cadosch was aware of his presence, he would likewise be aware of Cadosch’s presence mere feet away, and yet he proceeded with the murder and mutilation. By contrast, it was dark in Berner Street, the streets were empty, the murder spot was next to the street, and there was much noise to cover him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown
(2) As I had mentioned on the original post in a postscript, the only other murder in which the sound of a physical altercation occurred was in Hanbury Street ( Kelly's murder indoors, with the cry of "Oh Murder !" was, after all indoors, relatively safer than outdoors and excluded from this comparison ). Cadosch apparently thought little of the idea of looking over the fence as the sounds were not significant enough to warrant a look. What Schwartz claims he saw scared him....therefore, Cadosch's experience in no way mirrors that of Schwartz's...in my view.
If the Ripper assumed that Cadosch wouldn’t investigate…or was willing to take that risk…then we should expect to see the same carelessness in the next murder. And we did. Of course, I don't think the Ripper was particularly careless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown
( 3) While Stride may very well have been a Ripper victim...using Eddowes' murder as some sort of gauge is not the means to solidify Stride's place in the canon of victims,in my view. Wethink the Case as a whole most of the time...and incrementally at other times. This is an instance where our study should take each individual murder on its own merit, not on the actuality of another even as close as Mitre Square was.
It’s only one of many factors, but of course the killing of Eddowes at about the same time is a huge indicator that Stride was a Ripper victim, since her closest associates were investigated and cleared and she was murdered in such a fashion and locale as to suggest a practiced and relaxed hand. All the signs of a domestic murder are absent. And she certainly fits the ‘victim profile’.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown
(4 ) Pipeman's presence has less to do with the Stride murder, in my view, than some people make of it. Schwartz, in a frightened state, may have naturally over reacted and theorized very quickly to being the "man in the middle" of what could have been a situation of two fellows in cahoots with each other beating up a woman. Then again, Pipeman and BSM may have been in cahoots...with Pipeman running off. leaving his friend behind ?
I'm not buying that one.
You’re right, it is speculation. It has to be since Schwartz himself was not certain, although that was his gut instinct, so it deserves consideration. But it might likewise have been either Pipeman OR BS Man who killed Stride.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown
Until further factual, not speculative, data surfaces which links both Pipeman and BSM together....I feel we can do no more than speculate that they may have known each other. Even then, even if they did know each other, what we know of the Ripper so far is that he worked alone. That might strike a blow against Stride's candidacy all by itself, imho.
We know the Ripper worked alone? I think it’s likely he did not. And if you’re putting Tabram into the frame as a Ripper victim…which you did above…then you have two different blades in use which would be very rare for a public murderer to use, and therefore actual evidence suggesting the possibility of an accomplice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown
(5) This conclusion of Tom's, about BSM having no choice but to kill Stride, asks the reader to get inside the assailant's head. That we cannot do...or at least I cannot do...without using our own, personal imaginative powers, which will probably differ to the degree that our answers will not be the same.
I know if I was planning on murdering someone or put into an ever- developing situation where I wanted to kill someone...there "choice" becomes null and void...after the decision is made in my mind to kill, choice goes out the window....I would do so with the least amount of living souls around who might identify me...which is zero.
This did not happen in Berner Street.
Unless Stride was the only one of the ‘living souls’ present who could identify him. Then of course he would kill her, and he would do so as quickly and as efficiently as possible. If Stride had been mutilated like Eddowes I feel we’d have strong reason to doubt Schwartz's veracity.

Sorry if my replies seem rushed. It’s dinner time and I’m starving. I look forward to your replies, Howard.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old April 4th, 2013, 05:39 AM   #9
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http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=13402
The Silence of Violence

Tom
Let me know if you ever want to go back to a post and reword it....there have been times I rushed or misrepresented what I really meant in a post and having the luxury here to do so, I do it.

I'll get back to the discussion this evening, TC...
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Old April 4th, 2013, 07:19 AM   #10
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Hello Howie,

My first thought here is how many potentially invalid assumptions have to be made about the ripper in the process of clearing him of involvement in the Berner St murder.

For example, some people totally reject the possibility of anyone other than BS man killing Stride, accepting Schwartz's testimony but finding two assaults on one woman within minutes of each other too much of a coincidence. They then decide her inclusion/exclusion on the basis of whether or not BS man was 'ripperish' enough, by description or behaviour. You can see that the assumption count is already getting pretty high.

We know there was a man on the prowl that very night with an eye open for the opportunity to cut a female throat and indulge in some gutting if possible. Are we saying that while this man is out and about on the streets with his knife, on the lookout for potential victims, he is never going to come across one being manhandled or harassed? And that if by some faint chance he does, he won't wait to see the outcome and perhaps exploit the situation for his own ends? Might it not even excite him? Some of us have speculated that if the ripper wasn't involved in the Smith or Tabram murders, he may have found the details stimulating for his own fantasies.

We do have examples of this: I seem to recall that serial killer Peter Kurten 'rescued' one of his victims from some man who was giving her grief, only to murder the woman himself. And in recent years, killer and serial sex offender Mark Dixie was interrupted by a passing taxi as he tried to attack one woman, so he went off in search of another and came across a couple having a long argument in a parked car. He waited until the girl (Sally Anne Bowman) got out and the man drove off and then he brutally murdered her near her own front door, before she knew what was happening. The man in the car was her ex boyfriend, and he would almost certainly have gone down for her murder before the days of DNA testing, which cleared him and eventually caught Dixie.

Another assumption made to clear the ripper is that he wouldn't have chosen that location to mutilate (which is a fair point but still debatable), therefore he wouldn't have chosen that location for a murder. But if he killed Stride, this would have been the initial point of encounter, and he presumably got no chance to entice her away from the club's premises to a quieter, more private spot where he could indulge himself as he did in Hanbury St. He needn't have killed her with any expectation of being able to mutilate her in that location. There are various plausible explanations for why a murderous cut-throat with a sharp knife might turn nasty in any situation that gave him problems.

I try to make as few assumptions as possible, while exploring all the options. But one big stumbling block for me is the complete lack of evidence or motive for anyone other than the ripper to have done this to Stride. If the argument goes that there was nothing in it for our bloodthirsty homicidal maniac if he couldn't safely mutilate Stride in such a location, what was 'in it' for anyone else?

Love,

Caz
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