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Old April 4th, 2013, 07:21 AM   #11
Robert Linford
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Thanks everyone.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 09:47 AM   #12
Lynn Cates
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Hello Caroline.

"We know there was a man on the prowl that very night with an eye open for the opportunity to cut a female throat and indulge in some gutting if possible."

Know this? Why must he be on the prowl?

Cheers.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 02:06 PM   #13
Tom_Wescott
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Originally Posted by Howard Brown
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Let me know if you ever want to go back to a post and reword it....there have been times I rushed or misrepresented what I really meant in a post and having the luxury here to do so, I do it.
Hi Howard. That's either a random act of generosity on your part, or you're suggesting I've misrepresented myself? It certainly wouldn't be the first time, if I did, but could you point the direction?

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Tom Wescott
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Old April 4th, 2013, 04:01 PM   #14
Howard Brown
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Tom:
No, I wasn't saying you made a goof...but if you do in the future, let me know so you can go back to the post.

Caz:
Eloquently presented thoughts on the subject as always.
The excerpt below, in my view, is worth a thread on its own :

We know there was a man on the prowl that very night with an eye open for the opportunity to cut a female throat and indulge in some gutting if possible. Are we saying that while this man is out and about on the streets with his knife, on the lookout for potential victims, he is never going to come across one being manhandled or harassed? And that if by some faint chance he does, he won't wait to see the outcome and perhaps exploit the situation for his own ends? Might it not even excite him? Some of us have speculated that if the ripper wasn't involved in the Smith or Tabram murders, he may have found the details stimulating for his own fantasies.

We do have examples of this: I seem to recall that serial killer Peter Kurten 'rescued' one of his victims from some man who was giving her grief, only to murder the woman himself. And in recent years, killer and serial sex offender Mark Dixie was interrupted by a passing taxi as he tried to attack one woman, so he went off in search of another and came across a couple having a long argument in a parked car. He waited until the girl (Sally Anne Bowman) got out and the man drove off and then he brutally murdered her near her own front door, before she knew what was happening. The man in the car was her ex boyfriend, and he would almost certainly have gone down for her murder before the days of DNA testing, which cleared him and eventually caught Dixie.


As I mentioned before, in several areas where Stride's murder is brought up, it doesn't matter to me whether she was or wasn't a Ripper victim...I have nothing to prove or gain from being what you might call a doubter or disbeliever. Maybe, in all fairness, I have assumed that the Ripper would not be a openly belligerent fellow...or someone, say like Pipeman for an example, waiting in the wings to see how a skirmish between two strangers plays out.
You and Tom provide food for thought and I'm very glad you joined in, Caz.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 04:40 PM   #15
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I seem to recall that serial killer Peter Kurten 'rescued' one of his victims from some man who was giving her grief, only to murder the woman himself.
Love,

Caz
X
A minor point only, Caz - but that woman actually was the one who survived and helped nailing Kürten. Can´t fault your reasoning as such, though!

The best,
Christer
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Old April 4th, 2013, 04:56 PM   #16
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You and Tom provide food for thought and I'm very glad you joined in, Caz.
Me too, even though she has inexplicably ignored me for the last 6 months or so. But she does generally have a knack making sense and finding a simple way to explain things.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old April 4th, 2013, 06:22 PM   #17
Howard Brown
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Tom..Caz..

Part of the reason I consider her murder a little less likely to have been a Ripper murder ( Again, if she was or wasn't makes no difference to me ) are found in these remarks in an excerpt from the October 9th, 1888 Evanston Courier ( just as one example ).


Of course, murder and aggravated assault are two different things upon completion...but the same thing at the outset.
That's what I consider her murder to have been...an aggravated assault taken to the extreme.
When I say, "that's what I consider her murder to have been"...that's not a closed end/finite/end of story/kiss Caz and walk her home/fat lady sang/all she wrote hardheaded decision....I'm flexible.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 06:34 PM   #18
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Hi Howard. If it were an aggravated assault I'd expect there to have been screaming, arguing, and abuse. But there was none of that. And I don't see how the article you posted has to do with Stride any more than Eddowes or Chapman.

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Tom Wescott
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Old April 4th, 2013, 06:53 PM   #19
Howard Brown
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Tom:

If Schwartz is to be believed, then there was a confrontation at the threshhold of Dutfield's Yard which is not present in the Mitre Square murder or in Hanbury Street...
Three screams, according to Schwartz...do not one "No" uttered according to our carpenter friend in 27 Hanbury, make.

Schwartz claims she was tossed down to the street a couple of times...with the distinction of it being seen by passerbys....unlike the other two crimes, particularly Mitre Square....where Morris, with door ajar, heard nothing.

Eddowes was most likely seen by the three Jews on their way home from the Imperial Club. I give heed to accepting it completely, since most women wore bonnets, were short, and their wearing apparel was pretty similar.
If that was Eddowes...then the scenarios leading up to the murders ( Berner Street & Mitre Square ) are different...according to the witnesses.
Schwartz claimed he saw BSM approach Stride and a confrontation ensued.
Lawende said Eddowes had her hand on the chest of the person who probably killed her.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 06:57 PM   #20
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Hi Howard. But there was no screaming, no abuse, no 'aggravated assault'. And you talk of what didn't happen here or there, but there were LOTS of witnesses with windows and doors open in Berner Street and not a one of them heard anything, including a cry of 'Lipski!' That doesn't mean it didn't happen...you seem convinced it did...but it therefore may have happened in Mitre Square and it certainly happened in Hanbury street...hushed voices, a fall, someone saying 'no' but not too loud. You can say that's not what happened in Berner Street, but there it is in black and white.

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Tom Wescott
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