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Old April 4th, 2013, 07:19 PM   #21
Howard Brown
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Tom:
I understand that there were doors open in general on the street...and 20 or so people inside the IWEMC with at least one window partially open.

What seems to be in black and white to me, is that we have a different take on what constitutes an aggravated assault and a prelude to a murder.

If Schwartz is telling the truth, then the prelude to murder was an aggravated assault which he witnessed. There are no such witnesses that saw that in Mitre Square....maybe we should keep Hanbury Street out of the mix here, since it isn't germane to the evening of September 29th and early September 30th.

Eddowes' killer could have easily taken her...moments or minutes after she fetchingly placed her hand on his person as a sign of all systems go....taken her to the darkest part of the Square and immediately throttled her. That, to me, constitutes premeditated murder. No punching or shouting or throwing people down on the road....

I don't think we can be so sure of what went down on Berner Street. Stride may have set the man off with a flat out rejection...which led to the woman getting tossed.
Suppose, if you will, Stride hadn't rejected him for a little action in the Yard and because of her acquiesence to his whims of the flesh...they conduct their business and she lives another day.
I also don't think we can be so certain that Stride was marked for death as Eddowes appears to have been.
Stride doesn't seem to have been so eager or "on the game" as our colonist cousins would say....where the recently released from the drunk tank Kate was.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 07:24 PM   #22
Howard Brown
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Tom:
Before you ask or were thinking of it....I don't for a second subscribe to the theory that she was keeping an eye out on the Club nor do I think she was waiting for a specific man to go home with. I don't have a clue as to what she was doing there near the open gates...but with a gun to my head, I'd say she was particular to who she went off with. Maybe she, like other women, used discretion as to who she went off with...by that time, 4 women had been brutally murdered and our gal didn't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blew.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 08:02 PM   #23
Tom_Wescott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown
If Schwartz is telling the truth, then the prelude to murder was an aggravated assault which he witnessed.
This might be where you're getting stuck, the notion that Schwartz said he saw a murder. He didn't. That's merely inferred. And what he described is in no way an assault.

Perhaps time was an issue, and at such an early hour, I imagine it was. It was a lonely desolate street and there was exactly one woman standing on it, so it's her or no one.

And again, it might have been Morris Eagle simply moving her out of the way.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old April 4th, 2013, 08:10 PM   #24
Howard Brown
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Tom;
I didn't say Schwartz saw a murder...I said he saw an aggravated assault that led to murder. He didn't see the actual murder....he made sure to schlep down the road before the eventual murder.

Eagle doesn't mention having any contact with her...nor even seeing her.
This is pure speculation that he may have, isn't it ?
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Old April 4th, 2013, 09:06 PM   #25
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Where I quoted you you said that if Schwartz was telling the truth he saw a prelude to a murder therefore it must be an aggravated assault. But Schwartz could have been telling the truth and still have seen neither a prelude to a murder nor an assault since he never said he saw either. Your conclusion that BS Man murdered Stride is informing you in reverse to suppose that what happened before the murder was an 'assault' and that Schwartz witnessed the killer assault Stride. But none of this is in evidence. There's no report of an assault, no post mortem medical report of an assault, and no witness to Stride being murdered. And need I remind you there were two suspicious men on the street that night, according to Schwartz. And Schwartz's story was never corroborated.

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Old April 4th, 2013, 09:14 PM   #26
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Before I take a break from this interesting discussion, TC
...what do you classify trying to pull a woman into the street and then throwing her down in the roadway as ?
That's aggravated assault as far as I know. Physical violence upon another person.
Simple assault, I'd think, would be the man slapping her in the face.
More manana,man.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 09:40 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
... And what he described is in no way an assault.
The Association for Womens Rights have got your number my boy...


It is unfortunate that PC Lamb did not elaborate on what he saw..

"There were squabbles and rows in the streets, but nothing more."

Where were these squabbles, and at what time?
PC Lamb may have just confirmed Schwartz.

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Old April 4th, 2013, 11:09 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown View Post
Before I take a break from this interesting discussion, TC
If it's so interesting, why would you take a break from it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown
...what do you classify trying to pull a woman into the street and then throwing her down in the roadway as ?
BS Man pulled Stride and then pushed her. That she ended up on the ground may be incidental and not intention on the part of BS Man. Again I remind all that she had a deformed leg. What Schwartz saw was a man pull a woman out of the gateway and then push her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown
That's aggravated assault as far as I know. Physical violence upon another person.
Simple assault, I'd think, would be the man slapping her in the face.
More manana,man.
You posted an article earlier about assaults, etc. I seriously doubt the author of that piece had pushing and pulling in mind. As many newspaper reports as you've read from that era...probably a thousand more than I have....you MUST know what the writer was referring to. Think back to when you were younger and a guy in gym or someone you know grabbed you and pulled you about a bit. You might have been annoyed or pissed off, but did you feel you'd been "assaulted aggressively"? I seriously doubt it. The tangle between the two has been exaggerated by us all on account of her subsequent death.

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Old April 4th, 2013, 11:55 PM   #29
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When it comes to Stride’s murder, I’m a fence sitter, but my legs do dandle in Jack’s garden.


Reading Howard’s concerns about noise, or lack of, aren’t an issue for me because I see too many variables. If Schwartz had walked down Bucks Row at 3:30 in early August, would he have seen Nichols pushed to the ground screaming quietly? If Mrs Long had heard Chapman say, “no” would she have seen the man pull Annie "into the street and turn her around and push her down"? The key difference with Eddowes, is that she had already met her companion before Lawende saw her.


For me at least I can’t see a close enough comparison between the sighting to form any kind of pattern.


Of course, key above all, Swanson’s sentences ring out loudest,

“ … it is not clearly proved that the man that Schwartz saw is the murderer …”

and again in the same report,
“ … I understand the Inspector (Abberline) to suggest that Schwatz’s man need not have been the murderer.”


What makes me swing my legs in Jack’s geraniums is the fact that I don’t believe, on the evidence we have, that Kidney killed Stride. Which begs the question if not Jack who?
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Old April 5th, 2013, 05:27 AM   #30
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If it's so interesting, why would you take a break from it?
TC

Crazy little thing called sleep.
Mr. Doze

I'm really enjoying being part of a discussion where two fellas can disagree so civilized like.
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