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Old May 28th, 2013, 05:07 PM   #21
Wicker Man
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Hi Jon

I'm not convinced. f the body were on its left side like this with the arm under it I thingk the body would roll onto its back..

So i would have the arm up and bent with the head resting slightly on the shoulder

Many thanks for sketch

Yours Jeff
Hi Jeff.
Dr Phillips said there was mud on the left side of her face, and mud in her hair.
Do you think she could have got this way if her head rested on her arm?
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The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
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Old May 28th, 2013, 05:20 PM   #22
Christer Holmgren
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This is a quick sketch of what I mean.
The right shoulder is angled back from the upright, and the elbow is behind her with her hand resting on her right breast.

Does anyone else see it this way?



I donīt, Iīm afraid.

Her face was some six inches from the wall, facing it.
Her knees were closer to the wall than that. Both of them.
Those are two indicators of a position totally on her left side.
If the right hand had been in the position you suggest, the oblong clots of blood would have been readily visible from the outset, but I think they were not given away until her hand was lifted.

Try taking up a position where you lie on your left side, the legs on top of each other and your face looking straight into the wall you are lying by. See to it that your body rests upon the upper left arm, whereas the lower left arm is stretched out in front of you.

Then try and angle the right shoulder backwards, like in your drawing (which is beautifully done, by the way - professionally trained drawing artist, are you...?), and you will see that it all becomes totally awkward.

Also notice that whereas the witnesses all speak of her LEFT hand - which was readily visible on the ground, they all speak of her right ARM, and not of her right hand - since it could not be seen, having slumped down towards the ground. The impression would still be that it rested over the right side of her chest.

All the best, Jon!
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Old May 28th, 2013, 06:20 PM   #23
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Hi Christer.

Yes, her head was close to the wall, but Blackwell also said her feet were close too.

If I understand you correctly you favor something like 'B' below, whereas I envisage 'A'.
I have trouble imagining her right hand being able to rest on her right breast in B, the arm is going to want to fall forward, as I show in the sketch.

In order to have the right hand on her breast I'm sure her upper torso must be twisted, the right shoulder being further back and the elbow positioned behind her torso.

If Blackwell is correct about the feet, then obviously the knees were also that close too, as in A.

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The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
" observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.
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Old May 28th, 2013, 06:22 PM   #24
Jeff Leahy
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"You accept yourself that she may have moved herself a little into a natural fetal position."
The medicos stated that she could have drawn her knees up, but not rolled over.
Cheers.
LC
Your avoiding the question. She was either dead or alive.

You can not have it both ways

If she's dead weight or she is still alive?

Yours Jeff
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Old May 28th, 2013, 06:29 PM   #25
Jeff Leahy
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Hi Jeff.
Dr Phillips said there was mud on the left side of her face, and mud in her hair.
Do you think she could have got this way if her head rested on her arm?
Yeah I've been thinking about this?

Certainly if her head rested on her shoulder blade as I believe there would be another problem..

The blood flow from her throat run down to the gutter..

If her head rested on the shoulder joint, as I've been arguing, and as seems logical yo me...

Then would blood flow onto the clothing or down the breast and undone buttons...

I dont recall blood on the clothes mentioned and this worries me

But I still think that what I say is correct..her head rested on her shoulder joint up stretched further than the diagram

Your Jeff

Still behind as I'm busy on other stuff but trying to keep tag..sorry
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Old May 28th, 2013, 06:34 PM   #26
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But I still think that what I say is correct..her head rested on her shoulder joint up stretched further than the diagram

Your Jeff

Still behind as I'm busy on other stuff but trying to keep tag..sorry
Hi Jeff.

Given that her head was only inches from the wall, her outstretched arm could only point towards the side door of the club?
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The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
" observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.
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Old May 28th, 2013, 06:52 PM   #27
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Is this close Jeff?

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Regards, Jon S.
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The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
" observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.
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Old May 28th, 2013, 07:04 PM   #28
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Hello Jon. Thanks.

"I asked Lynn about the right shoulder being directly above (perpendicular to the ground) the left shoulder, but I don't actually see it that way."

My suggestion was rather trivial, wishing to account for the close distance.

Most of this looks good to me.

Cheers.
LC
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Old May 28th, 2013, 07:07 PM   #29
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Hello Jon.

"Dr Phillips said there was mud on the left side of her face, and mud in her hair.
Do you think she could have got this way if her head rested on her arm?"

Excellent point.

Cheers.
LC
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Old May 28th, 2013, 07:10 PM   #30
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Hello Jeff. Thanks.

I don't know what you're asking. If/when she drew her knees up, she was alive. Dead weight is AFTER you are dead.

Is THAT what you mean?

Cheers.
LC
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