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Old October 3rd, 2013, 09:46 PM   #21
Lynn Cates
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Hello Paul. Thanks.

Frontal? Bloody difficult.

Cheers.
LC
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 09:48 PM   #22
Lynn Cates
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Hello Adam. Thanks.

"I have no theory in regards to how her body came to be in the position that it did. . ."

OK, but something is need for reenactment purposes.

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LC
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 11:19 PM   #23
Cris Malone
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Hi Lynn,

The main problem I see with the reenactment is establishing total surprise for the person playing the victim. Its seems it would be essential in getting a realistic scenario. In other words, how much reality can you add and still be safe.

As a Civil War reenactor, I worked around cannons and pyrotechnics all the time. But of course they were firing blanks at us and we knew it. One time we were doing a documentary down in Georgia and for a more realistic effect they let a section of a Union battery fire live rounds (grapeshot), so they could film the recoil of the guns and have the amber smoke that wasn't there when firing blanks. Of course they safely fired them into the woods and not at us. But one volley from two cannon leveled a whole grove of trees. It was an awesome sight and all I could think of was, "And these guys charged into this!?" I mean it changed my whole perspective of what we were representing.

My point is, with any reenactment there's going to be an element of realism that is inherently missing.
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Old October 4th, 2013, 07:29 AM   #24
Lynn Cates
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Hello Cris. Thanks.

I could not agree with you more. I could catch my wife off guard, but then there goes safety. But when safety is important, there could be some unconscious body correction (in the last one, my wife did not rotate as far as I might have wished).

Cheers.
LC
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Old October 4th, 2013, 08:50 AM   #25
Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Went View Post
Nemo:

That's also a possibility, but - and don't quote me on this - many times in the past when i've suggested the use of the scarf Stride was wearing, I have been informed that the scarf was only a light, weak one - not one that would have the ability to strangle or be used as a manouvering device.

Cheers,
Adam.
That doesn't sound right to me Adam

I can imagine pipeman walking past her with her facing the street and attacking her as described

I think her having cachous in hand indicate that the violent moment with BS man had passed for at least a few moments

Nonchalantly sucking on cachous might be seen as a natural action to outwardly display confidence in the tense situation, even though she might have been inwardly scared

But she would only have to turn her back to him toward the yard or doorway for a second for him to be in a position to launch an attack that would result in her final body position

I can't remember the evidence or how much an assumption it was of mine that her final position appeared to be a result of her attempting to turn over or at least draw up into a foetal position, implying that her throat may have been cut when she was more flat on her back
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Old October 4th, 2013, 07:08 PM   #26
Lynn Cates
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Hello Paul.

"implying that her throat may have been cut when she was more flat on her back."

But is that consistent with the wetness and mud stains on the dress?

Cheers.
LC
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Old October 5th, 2013, 12:02 AM   #27
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Hi all,

Lynn:

Then perhaps the killer grabbed her from behind as she walked into the passageway. I'm not convinced about the use of the scarf but it may have been used in conjunction with his hands.

There are elements of circumstantial evidence on which the rest of my theory is built, but as far as the position of the body and how it came to be there goes, that is pure guesswork and assumption.

So that is about all I can offer, again feel free to do what you like with that portion of the scenario - perhaps you could even do the same scenario with different possibilities for the body position part.

Nemo:

I agree with you, the very presence of the cachous indicates that she had perhaps taken a moment to settle herself down after the encounter with BS man. If she had had them in her hand when she was attacked by him, they would surely have spilled on the street as she tried to protect herself.

As for the scarf, as I mentioned above it might have been used in conjunction with his hands, but yes I have been informed in the past that it was not a scarf which would have been capable of doing much damage on its own.

Jon:

Fair point, and I don't mean to suggest that BS man was blind rotten drunk. However, from Schwartz's description of his actions it is nonetheless evident that he was under the influence and not bothered about flaunting his violent tendencies in public.

From everything we can gather, this is not how Jack operated, and given the precise incisions made on Catherine Eddowes' body less than an hour later, I definitely do not think that the same man who Schwartz described attacking Liz would have been capable of carrying that out on Catherine Eddowes - especially when you consider the time frame he was working in, lighting, etc etc.

Cheers,
Adam.
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Old October 5th, 2013, 07:01 AM   #28
Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO
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Hi Lynn

I'll have to check but IIRC most of the mud was on her left side though there was some toward the right

Hi Adam

I'm not sure what they mean about the scarf

Surely most any piece of cloth would have sufficient strength to be used as a ligature or at least be able to be pulled tightly

It didn't break or anything did it? And it was capable of being frayed so it was probably cotton or even wool, possibly silk, any of which could strangle
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Old October 5th, 2013, 07:15 AM   #29
Lynn Cates
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Hello Adam. Thanks.

"Then perhaps the killer grabbed her from behind as she walked into the passageway."

Very well. But if it happened when she was walking IN, her feet should be pointed west.

Cheers.
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Old October 5th, 2013, 07:18 AM   #30
Lynn Cates
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Hello Paul. Thanks.

Yes, there was a small amount that side--but not consonant with her having fallen there.

The scarf was said to be silk.

Cheers.
LC
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