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Old October 19th, 2013, 11:18 AM   #21
Monty
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Ah,

I understand now Cris, I thought you were referring to a feud within CID itself.

Yes, completely agree with you on Swanson, just I see Swanson as more job focused that career minded, although undoubtedly his career was naturally there for him.

It seems Anderson's introduction wasn't looked on too fondly by CID either, with one senior CID man being singled out by Anderson in his memoirs, stating he felt this senior Officer spoke to him as if he were a child.

Anyway, back to the thread.

Sorry

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Old October 19th, 2013, 12:05 PM   #22
Cris Malone
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Yes, and Swanson added an annotation in his copy that it was Shore, I believe.

What I meant in terms of Swanson's views on his own career was that he knew that setting an example was the best means to forward that career. He was a workaholic and a stickler for detail - even in his hobbies. He was raised up to believe that true merit offered dividends in return.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 12:08 PM   #23
Lynn Cates
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Hello Cris.

"He was a workaholic and a stickler for detail - even in his hobbies."

Yes, and possibly that's a racial characteristic, if I may so say.

Cheers.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 12:08 PM   #24
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Yep Cris,

Twas Shore, whose descendant I have just spoken to not more than 3 hours ago.

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Old October 19th, 2013, 08:44 PM   #25
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Hi Tom,

The problem with James Brown is that if his time estimates are even roughly correct, then he should have seen (or heard) at least some of the other major players in the 30 minutes leading up to Stride's murder, and yet the statement that he gives is not consistent with any of the others.

You say there was no couple on the corner at 12.45, and that's fine, but even James Brown wasn't sure that his times were at 12.45 - his statement may not have been so much of "I didn't see anything" as "I can't be certain of anything."

Compare this with the likes of Schwartz and Diemschutz who were more certain. Does it make them more truthful? No, of course not, but it makes it much easier to build a timeline with less guesswork and assumption in it.

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Old October 19th, 2013, 11:48 PM   #26
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Hi Adam, I'm not sure what it is you expect Brown to have seen. He was only in that part of Fairclough for seconds...the time it took to exit the shop, walk across the street, and be on his way. He saw Stride with her man and that's it. Who else was there for him to see? He might have walked through the street at 12:43, thus would have missed Schwartz. Or Schwartz hit that spot at 12:47, missing Brown. I don't see your point. If Pipeman and Brown's man were one in the same, then both did indeed see at least two of the same people, the only party missing would be BS Man. That's one of the reasons I put Brown's sighting as occurring shortly before Schwartz's.

Cris and Monty,

I know that in your little worlds the policemen of 1888 were all infallible, honest to a fault, and you'd throw yourselves into a train to protect anyone of them. But for those of us in the real world we don't all see this amazingly accurate stickler for detail that you see. And people in mid-level positions such as Swanson are often Yes Men because that's who the higher ups need in such a position. That was a reality of business long before Swanson's time and remains so to this day. So to disregard the corporate infrastructure when considering the men at different levels of a complicated system such as the London police in the LVP is not doing the rest of us any favors. I think it's tiresome that there only seems to be two sides in Ripperology: Those who blame the police for everything and see each one of them as lazy, corrupt, or incompetent; and the opposite side that has blinders on to the fact that some of them were lazy, some were corrupt, and some were incompetent. I don't believe Swanson was any of these, but nor does he appear to have been anything like an investigator.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old October 20th, 2013, 12:17 AM   #27
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Tom,

I find the statement in your last sentence even more remarkable than the accusation in the first part. However, I'll let someone more capable than me respond if they wish... If they think its even worthy of one.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 12:28 AM   #28
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Hi Cris. Instead of being so condescending, why don't you tell me what's so remarkable about my statement? I said that most Ripperologists fall in to two camps - those who think the police were collectively lazy, incompetent, and corrupt (something I don't agree with), or the other extreme, where every mistake they made (and there were many) is excused, written off, ignored, or glossed over. I own the same books you do and read the same posts so I'm not pulling this out of me bum. Our view of the police is a dividing point in Ripperology, just like the candidacy of Tabram as a Ripper victim, or so many other things. I personally think both camps are wrong. I'm perhaps being a bit dogmatic because I'm sure there's a number of others who feel as I do, but the vocal majority seems to waver between anti-police and police hero-worship.

As for Swanson, please provide me some examples of him bucking authority, going out on a limb, rustling feathers, or doing anything except saying yes. We have plenty of examples of everyone else doing this - Warren, Anderson, Matthews, Mac, etc. So please show me how Swanson stacks up with these men if I'm so wrong. Sometimes a Yes Man IS precisely the right person for the job, and he should be competent and loyal and a great order taker. Try and imagine Warren in Swanson's position as a subordinate to Anderson doing that kind of work. It would have been a nightmare.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old October 20th, 2013, 01:09 AM   #29
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Tom.
Division does exist yes, though I don't agree with the adjectives you use. From what I see much of the negative opinion about the police emanates from a distinct lack of understanding in police procedures, methods, and duties.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 02:11 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicker Man View Post
Tom.
Division does exist yes, though I don't agree with the adjectives you use. From what I see much of the negative opinion about the police emanates from a distinct lack of understanding in police procedures, methods, and duties.
Hi Wick. The way I see it is that the police were both a single force and a collection of individuals. When we look at each one individually, we're either impressed or disappointed in that person. I believe that also impacts how we view the police as a collective.

As for ignorance of procedures, methods, etc., you have on the one hand folks like Simon suggesting that DC Halse moved Eddowes' apron from Mitre Square to the graffiti in Goulston Street, for reasons I don't pretend to understand; on the other hand, you have folks like Monty and Cris, blindly defending everyone (except for perhaps Warren, who seems to be fair game). I'm sure you'd agree that none of these three men possess a "distinct lack of understanding in police procedures, methods, and duties." I apologize for using them as examples, but they are the ones coming immediately to mind.

Also, let me add that procedures, methods, etc. are words on a page. How often they are followed and to what extent depends on the people who enforce the rules and the people who are supposed to follow them. We can't forget the human element in all this. And at the same time, I'm not sure we should implicate someone like Halse as an accessory after the fact without at least something other than imagination to back it up. Perhaps it's a case of too little imagination on one side, and too much on the other? I'm guilty of both from time to time, so I'm not throwing stones, just speaking out on a topic of interest. To be honest, for too many years I ignored the police element because it just didn't interest me. But my own research has led along those lines and I've been enjoying going back and reading some of the more reliable books on the subject, and will be going back when the time comes and reading Monty and Rob's City Beat series more carefully.

I've actually enjoyed reading about Warren's past quite a bit. He was a very impressive man and I now regret so ignorantly referring to him as a mere 'stuffed suit toff' in the past. He was a real man's man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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