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Old May 9th, 2014, 08:18 PM   #11
Wicker Man
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In the words of W.S. Gilbert, this might simply have been a case of Hutchinson adding "mere corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative" (Pooh-Bah, The Mikado)
What was this 'corroborative detail'?
I would have though he omitted the only 'corroborative detail (the bag), but introduced too many uncorroborative details (coat, chain, seal, gloves, gaiters, parcel, etc).

Shouldn't logic dictate the lair would try provide corroborative details which outnumber the uncorroborative details - to make it sound more believable?
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Old May 10th, 2014, 05:35 AM   #12
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What was this 'corroborative detail'??
If you know the Mikado, Pooh-Bah says that after his friends accuse him (rightly) of making up a load of superfluous detail to give apparent substance to a lie. Pooh-Bah's use of the phrase "corroborative detail" is, of course, ironic.

In Hutchinson's case, Kelly's brief discussion with "a female acquaintance" becomes an extended duologue, containing details such as H apologising for being skint after returning from Romford. The simple reports of her being accosted by a "well-dressed man" becomes a more elaborate encounter played out under the gaslight of Commercial Street and the entrance to Miller's Court, complete with laughter, saucy innuendo, and a flourished handkerchief. The "well-dressed man" himself, quite sketchily described in the Roney/Kennedy (etc) stories, grows into a dandy sporting spats, kid gloves, waistcoat, massive gold chain, seal with a red stone, red handkerchief, and so forth.
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Shouldn't logic dictate the lair would try provide corroborative details which outnumber the uncorroborative details - to make it sound more believable?
Not if he had no real corroborative details to offer. Such corroborative details as he had, I suggest, were those readily available via the rumour-mills and the newspapers. There might have been a well-dressed man (within reason) who accompanied Kelly that night (according to Roney/Kennedy/Lewis and/or "a female acquaintance"), because that much seems to have been reported with reasonable consistency by the press. Given the similarity of the "core" of those reports to Hutchinson's account, however, I can't avoid the suspicion that Hutchinson used these stories to concoct his own "15 minutes of fame".
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Old May 10th, 2014, 09:39 AM   #13
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If you know the Mikado, Pooh-Bah says that after his friends accuse him (rightly) of making up a load of superfluous detail to give apparent substance to a lie. Pooh-Bah's use of the phrase "corroborative detail" is, of course, ironic.
I appreciate the explanation, as you may well gather, the Mikado is not to everyone's taste

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In Hutchinson's case, Kelly's brief discussion with "a female acquaintance" becomes an extended duologue, containing details such as H apologising for being skint after returning from Romford. The simple reports of her being accosted by a "well-dressed man" becomes a more elaborate encounter played out under the gaslight of Commercial Street and the entrance to Miller's Court, complete with laughter, saucy innuendo, and a flourished handkerchief. The "well-dressed man" himself, quite sketchily described in the Roney/Kennedy (etc) stories, grows into a dandy sporting spats, kid gloves, waistcoat, massive gold chain, seal with a red stone, red handkerchief, and so forth.Not if he had no real corroborative details to offer. Such corroborative details as he had, I suggest, were those readily available via the rumour-mills and the newspapers. There might have been a well-dressed man (within reason) who accompanied Kelly that night (according to Roney/Kennedy/Lewis and/or "a female acquaintance"), because that much seems to have been reported with reasonable consistency by the press. Given the similarity of the "core" of those reports to Hutchinson's account, however, I can't avoid the suspicion that Hutchinson used these stories to concoct his own "15 minutes of fame".
As is often the case in this type of reasoning, everyday occurrences are being molded into suspicious circumstances and, the key details that expose the flaws in this reasoning are being ignored or explained away as being of little consequence.

What is missing of course in your proposal is that no criminal has ever needed to use a composite from a variety of newspaper stories to build an 'alibi' for himself.
It is simply just too 'Agatha Christie'...

If you are being honest, and found yourself in Hutchinson's position, would you be unable to concoct some story (any story?) to satisfy police without turning to a composite of press stories?

I sometimes think people who propose these scenario's never place themselves in the role of 'the liar' to see if that is what 'they' would do. It's always what 'he' might have done, never what 'I' would have done.
If you had to offer this scenario with absolute conviction that this is exactly what 'you' would do, I suspect you might reconsider.
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The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
" observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 11:24 AM   #14
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I appreciate the explanation, as you may well gather, the Mikado is not to everyone's taste
"See how the Fates their gifts allot; For A is happy, B is not"
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What is missing of course in your proposal is that no criminal has ever needed to use a composite from a variety of newspaper stories to build an 'alibi' for himself.
I don't consider Hutchinson a criminal, though, just an attention-seeking prankster. Not so much "Jack the Ripper" as "Jack the Lad".
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Old May 10th, 2014, 01:52 PM   #15
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"See how the Fates their gifts allot; For A is happy, B is not" I don't consider Hutchinson a criminal, though, just an attention-seeking prankster. Not so much "Jack the Ripper" as "Jack the Lad".
Funny how we, today, can suggest a parallel between Hutchinson's dialogue and pre-published dialogue printed in the press, and yet the police at the time couldn't. (Apparently, due to Abberline's acceptance of Hutchinson's story).

Why would this make any sense?, to tell a story to detectives which has already been written, almost word for word. What is the rationale for going this route?, Hutch will not know if his charade will be spotted.
And, the very source for these stories; Kennedy, Paumier & Ronay, have already spoken to police. Their statements already on file.

And yet 'we' think 'we' are smart and the police 'dumb' (by implication) not to see the charade being acted out?

And lastly of course, the omission of the all important 'black bag'. The very key to the legitimacy of his story is left out entirely.
I don't know Gareth, the idea is so full of holes....
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The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
" observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 02:18 PM   #16
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And lastly of course, the omission of the all important 'black bag'. The very key to the legitimacy of his story is left out entirely.
Its transmutation into a "kind of parcel" made of "dark American Cloth" would easily translate into a "black bag", without his having to use the clichéd phrase... um... "black bag".

This is where the "corroborative detail to add verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative" comes in.
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Funny how we, today, can suggest a parallel between Hutchinson's dialogue and pre-published dialogue printed in the press, and yet the police at the time couldn't.
Indeed, so making up a few additional "details" around the periphery isn't going to do him any harm, as long as the core of his story tallies with those of the others. The cheeky little scamp!
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Old May 10th, 2014, 04:48 PM   #17
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I'm very much relieved to learn that I'm not alone in considering Hutch a mere excrescence on the face of ripperology...provisionally of course!

All the best

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Old May 10th, 2014, 05:37 PM   #18
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Given the band-width devoted to him, perhaps something more than 'mere'.

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The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
" observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 05:40 PM   #19
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Its transmutation into a "kind of parcel" made of "dark American Cloth" would easily translate into a "black bag", without his having to use the clichéd phrase... um... "black bag".

This is where the "corroborative detail to add verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative" comes in.Indeed, so making up a few additional "details" around the periphery isn't going to do him any harm, as long as the core of his story tallies with those of the others. The cheeky little scamp!
In other words, "no matter what he says", we can bend, twist, and dilute his words to suit the theory.
Ok, the message is loud and clear.
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Regards, Jon S.
"
The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
" observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 06:33 PM   #20
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In other words, "no matter what he says", we can bend, twist, and dilute his words to suit the theory.
Not at all, Jon. I don't bend, twist or dilute any of Hutchinson's story, because I don't have to. I'm just speaking as I find - and what I find is a literally incredible amount of detail, in a story which looks suspiciously similar to others that had been in the public domain since the 9th November. I may be mistaken in my conclusion, but the evidence for it is "all there", with no bending/twisting required.
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