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The Community's Collective Wisdom "Scotland Yard was really no wiser on the subject than it was 15 years ago.."-F.G.Abberline,1903. The question is...are we ?

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Old November 27th, 2014, 06:22 AM   #21
Curryong
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Can we say, Robinson, that perhaps Jack's victim's didn't lie down of their own accord?
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Old November 27th, 2014, 07:22 AM   #22
Harry Poland
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"How does one get a prostitute to lie down in a filthy London Street in the ONLY clothes she owns?"

In our younger and more atheletic days, my good lady and I actually simulated hypothetical scenarios in which this could be done.

We have a lot of experience training together, we were working on a padded studio floor with quite a lot of protective gear so we were going at each other, not pussyfooting around.

As soon as she perceived an attack she was to fight back and attempt to scream. She was not allowed to scream if my hands were on her mouth or throat. (For obvious reasons strangulation and suffocation were simulated and the 'knife' was actually an old kitchen roll tube)

We also worked on the premise that there would be at least 1 minute of strangualtion where the "victim" would have a considerable amount of fight.

Obvously this excercise was limited in as much as we were both fit, strong, sober and fully trusting of other but we did come to some intersting conclusions.

1) If the murderer had attempted to strangle his victims whilst standing, he could be expected to sustain considerable defensive injuries, one theory that was mooted but not tested was that the victim may have been subdued with a sharp blow to the stomach
2) Tripping somebody or pushing them over is quite hit and miss and they get back up and make noise and run away lot quicker than you expect (admittedly the 'victim' in this case was prepared for such a move)
3) It's far easier and the killer gets hurt far less if he attacks from behind (I don't know if the classic "sleeper hold" was known in Victorian times, but having subsequently read Tom Wescott's analysis of this and the crime of garotting. I'm very impressed by sme of his conclusions)

In the end we actually concluded that the best way (from the killers perspective) of subduing the victims in a manner consitent with the Whitechapel killings was for the killer to request oral sex and then to push over his squatting victim, jumping on top of her and pinning her shoulders with his body weight. Strangulation from this position is quite easy. This is also consitent with the bruising found on Elizabeth Stride.

I'm not saying that's how jack did it but if he did it otherwise he was doing I the hard way

I think I've still got video footage of this, but it's unlikley that my better half will permit me to post images of our younger, slimmer selves. And before anybody askes we're not doing it again. Old people don't bounce as well as young ones
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Old November 27th, 2014, 08:10 AM   #23
Lynn Cates
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Hello Harry.

"This is also consitent with the bruising found on Elizabeth Stride."

It is indeed. What is NOT consistent is the mud/dampness evidence on her dress. That was virtually ALL left side. So she was not on her back.

Cheers.
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Old November 27th, 2014, 11:27 AM   #24
Harry Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Cates View Post
Hello Harry.

"This is also consitent with the bruising found on Elizabeth Stride."

It is indeed. What is NOT consistent is the mud/dampness evidence on her dress. That was virtually ALL left side. So she was not on her back.

Cheers.
LC
Good point well made :-)
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Old November 27th, 2014, 01:38 PM   #25
Lynn Cates
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Hello Harry. Thanks.

Perhaps you, like me, are interested in the forensics aspects of the case?

At any rate, well done.

Cheers.
LC
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Old November 27th, 2014, 03:56 PM   #26
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I firmly believe that they were anaesthetised.
Why do I think that? Well, looking closely at the autopsy report of Annie Chapman, there is one very striking piece of evidence that most people seem to over look. In her autopsy report, it was clearly stated that Chapman's tongue was swollen. This is a very clear indicator of the victim dying from suffocation. Strangulation or garotting would have left distinctive marks on the body and would not have caused the victims tongue to swell.
Ether was used as an anaesthetic for patients undergoing surgery in the late 19th century. It was a controlled substance and could only be obtained by medical professionals.
It is well documented by medical journals of the time and also modern times, that giving the patient a too high a concentrate of ether, the patient died extremely quickly. I believe this happened to Annie Chapman.
Severin Klosowski (George Chapman) would have been able to obtain ether and would have known how to use it. But, and this is a very BIG BUT, how do we link Klosowski to the writer of the diary James Maybrick?
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Old November 27th, 2014, 04:51 PM   #27
Lynn Cates
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Hello Robinson.

"This is a very clear indicator of the victim dying from suffocation."

Absolutely.

"Strangulation or garotting would have left distinctive marks on the body and would not have caused the victims tongue to swell."

Actually, the tongue WOULD be swollen if she were strangled. Recall, too, that she had scratches, made by her own fingernails, perpendicular to the parallel neck cuts.

Annie was being strangled before her rings were taken and her throat cut and abdomen mutilated.

But what kind of lad kills a woman:

1. In the backyard of a house full of people

2. after sunup

3. after talking loudly near the front windows

4. and takes some worthless rings whilst ransacking her pocket and laying the contents out neatly?

A: Ask Dr. William Julius Mickle.

Cheers.
LC
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Old November 28th, 2014, 12:11 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinson Laird View Post
I firmly believe that they were anaesthetised.
Why do I think that? Well, looking closely at the autopsy report of Annie Chapman, there is one very striking piece of evidence that most people seem to over look. In her autopsy report, it was clearly stated that Chapman's tongue was swollen. This is a very clear indicator of the victim dying from suffocation. Strangulation or garotting would have left distinctive marks on the body and would not have caused the victims tongue to swell.
Ether was used as an anaesthetic for patients undergoing surgery in the late 19th century. It was a controlled substance and could only be obtained by medical professionals.
It is well documented by medical journals of the time and also modern times, that giving the patient a too high a concentrate of ether, the patient died extremely quickly. I believe this happened to Annie Chapman.
Severin Klosowski (George Chapman) would have been able to obtain ether and would have known how to use it. But, and this is a very BIG BUT, how do we link Klosowski to the writer of the diary James Maybrick?
Klosowski was a barber and a poisoner. He wasn't allowed to practice surgery in England even if he did some minor surgery in Poland. Whether he had access to ether is questionable. There is no known connection between Maybrick and Klosowski, let alone the Maybrick diary. The diary is very questionable as being a period artifact even if it has not been definitively proven to be a fake.
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Old November 28th, 2014, 02:38 PM   #29
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Hello Chris.

"Whether he had access to ether is questionable."

Not to mention, moot. Some of the ladies were checked for that.

Cheers.
LC
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Old November 29th, 2014, 04:12 PM   #30
Harry Poland
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"Hello Harry. Thanks.

Perhaps you, like me, are interested in the forensics aspects of the case?"

That would be a resounding yes in answer to that.
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