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Critics Corner + Opinion Central Book and articles reviewed...Theories analyzed....You know what they say about opinions...they're like Ripperological viewpoints....everyone has one.

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Old June 7th, 2015, 07:38 PM   #11
Gabriel Withington
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Based on the general tone, I'm feeling that the responses point to the following conclusions:

because I am:
a) fairly new to this, and
b) think about it differently

that actually having a conversation with me about these things is viewed as a waste of time.

Aside from reading the entire output of the efforts of Ripperologists, does anybody have suggestions on how to better formulate and present my ideas? Is there some way to salvage the thoughts that I have put into this or is an analysis based on identifying salient points and discarding ones which seem impossible due to conflict a total waste of time?

Also, since there seem to be at least three authors who have dedicated the time to consider my candidate and have successfully written what seem to be fairly well read books on the subject - does there seem to be any merit to this vein of thinking? Or is there some reason which has caused Arthur Conan Doyle to be excluded entirely as a candidate? Or perhaps there is another thread on this board where people actually take this sort of thinking seriously beyond saying that it's been covered?

When I originally posted, I was hoping for a little more in the way of engagement than straw man arguments and snide condescension. If you actually value your opinion and would like others to agree with you, it seems worth taking the effort to explain your position so that perhaps even a novice could understand. Otherwise, it seems like you are just wasting people's time.

So far, my conclusion is that nobody actually wants to talk about who Jack the Ripper may have been which seems a little unusual considering the focus of this board.
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Old June 8th, 2015, 04:40 AM   #12
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Just trying to help.
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Old June 8th, 2015, 07:21 AM   #13
Paul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel Withington View Post
Paul:
Thank you for bringing the book to my attention, I was previously unaware of it. Would you recommend it? Also, the blurb on Amazon makes no reference to the possibility of Doyle being the actual killer. Do you feel that they made a strong case or did the fictionalized presentation of the facts detract from the overall argument?
Hi Gabriel
I didn't much take to the theory that Doyle could have been Jack the Ripper, but the author's made as strong a case as I susect could have been made. I recall enjoying the book when I read it, but I don't recall to much about it now. It's a book you should read, I guess, and I'll have to take a swing by it again.
Cheers
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Old June 8th, 2015, 09:17 AM   #14
Jon Simons
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Originally Posted by JMenges View Post
Who better than Doyle to coin the term 'serial killer'? How about an FBI agent in the 1970's? And at that, he wasn't specifically seeking to define Jack the Ripper.
Nick Warren found the use of the term "serial killer" in an American publication dating from the mid 19th century.
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Old June 8th, 2015, 09:38 AM   #15
Joan Tortorello
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Hi Gabriel,


Gabriel is one of my favorite names; for some odd reason, I'm partial to biblical names.


Anyway about your theory on Sir Doyle, many of these guys have been doing this for years and years. They've pretty much heard every theory out there including the one on Doyle. Every once in a while these controversies poke their heads out. In the recent past, we've had the Sickert theory, the shawl theory, the Maybrick theory, the Gull theory and quite a few more.


We all have to learn and these guys are the people to give us the education. Here are the experts and they get tough. One of the best ways of eliminating possible suspects is to poke holes in the presented theory, and these guys are the ones who can do it. Those who make out best against them hold their own with facts and strong logic. They do want to discuss who did it, but be prepared for the hard knocks and be ready for the skepticism over famous suspects.


Enjoy the lively debate and understand that is all it is, just debate.




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Old June 8th, 2015, 10:15 AM   #16
Chris G.
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Originally Posted by Gabriel Withington View Post

So far, my conclusion is that nobody actually wants to talk about who Jack the Ripper may have been which seems a little unusual considering the focus of this board.
Hi Gabriel

You are wrong. We do want to talk about who Jack the Ripper might have been. However, look at it from our perspective: it's hard to talk with someone who doesn't have a full understanding of the case and who comes here with faulty ideas or bad information. In order to discuss the ideas presented we have to first address the poster's misconceptions.

Now, if you read up about the case, and gain a better understanding of it, you can usefully contribute to these boards. We all have to start somewhere.

Gabriel, to an extent, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle makes an appealing candidate to have been the Whitechapel murderer given that he was the man who invented Sherlock Holmes. However, realistically, Conan Doyle is an outsider to have been the Ripper, with no evidence that he committed the murders.

Best regards

Chris
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Old June 8th, 2015, 10:56 AM   #17
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Dear Gabriel,
I'm sorry that you feel rather frustrated about our responses to your post. I hope I can make my own points a little clearer. Conan Doyle has of course been mentioned as a possible suspect in the JTR killings, but I hope you wont take offence when I say that he is not really among the front runners!

Im sorry but I do not agree that JTR was an upper class male is a 'common conclusion' or that the police 'appeared to be guarding the identity of the Ripper'. In fact, several senior police held differing views on who that individual was. Inspector Abberline favoured the Pole later known as George Chapman, who hanged for the murder of several of his defactos.

Anderson (and Swanson) seem to have believed that the Jewish Aaron Kosminski could have been the Ripper. Sir Melville Macnaghton, later Chief Constable at Scotland Yard perhaps pointed to the barrister/tutor Monty Druitt, due to private information which he stated came into his possession. Other police had other suspects in mind but I dont want to go on all night! None of these suspects, with the exception of Druitt, were noble or aristocratic.

Druitt was from the professional classes as was Doyle, though Druitt came from a more prosperous background. Both men would have spoken and acted in a certain way common to their class. Both had been educated at public schools. That is why I say, and it is entirely my own opinion, that, having both studied and taught the Victorian period my entire adult life, I think that men of that class would find it extremely difficult to move about Whitechapel and Spitalfields picking up prostitutes of the sort killed by Jack. It would be very hard to disguise accent and mannerisms for hours at a time in such an area, a locale Doyle was unfamiliar with.

No, Conan Doyle wasnt yet a celebrity and he was a poor doctor at the time, but to the men and women of the East End he would have come off as an educated toff. Certainly any observers would have wondered what a large strapping reasonably good looking young man, over 6 ft 2 ins tall, would have wanted with a person like Annie Chapman, for instance. There would have been few 'distinguished gentlemen' picking up the sort of tarts that were Jack's prey. These were, for the most part, heavy drinking, poverty stricken women who carried their few possessions around with them and charged men threepence to go with them.

Conan Doyle was not the first to think of a Jill the Ripper. Lord Sydney Osborne, in a letter to the Times in September 1888 suggested that Nicols' and Chapman's murders could have been performed by another streetwalker. A surgeon, Lawson Tait, suggested a strong female slaughterhouse cleaner.

I don't think that these murders were a 'hot topic' to Conan Doyle at all. He simply proposed that a midwife would escape questioning and a male could disguise himself as a bloodstained midwife. Later William stewart and ex Det Supt Arthur Butler suggested a midwife/ abortionist. However, most of the victims were beyond their childbearing years and Mary Kelly wasnt pregnant, so none of them would have had need of such help.

As I've said I dont believe that the JTR murders were at the forefront of Conan Doyle's mind in 1888. I believe his main worry would have been to provide a good living for his wife and their coming child. Not that that precludes killing prostitutes in the East End of London, but imo Doyle is an unlikely candidate. He showed no homicidal tendencies throughout life, unless skinning seals in earlier career can be considered such!

I don't think, and I may be wrong, that there were through trains to London from Southsea in 1888. While a doctor does have an excuse to be out at night I just can't imagine Doyle roaming about Whitechapel for hours, killing, mutilating, then travelling back to Southsea in time to attend to his patients at morning surgery. Many doctors lived in Whitechapel and Spitalfields. Drs Llewellen and Killeen were two of them, who were called first to examine Martha Tabram and Polly Nichols for example, before the Police surgeon.
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Old June 8th, 2015, 11:48 AM   #18
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Means, well anyone could have killed these women with an knife.

Motive, I haven't seen anything in Doyles writing or history to indicate to me he was a violent murder, quite the opposite. In all his writings he is on the side of justice and apprehending the criminals and he did help with two miscarriages of justice.

Opportunity, as Curryong said he was in Southsea at the time.
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Old June 8th, 2015, 02:26 PM   #19
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I actually proposed AC Doyle over a decade ago, as part of a conspiracy with GA Hentry, EW Hornung, and HG Wells.

If I remember correctly, Paul Begg found it momentarily amusing, but other than that it didn't get much traction.
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Old June 8th, 2015, 02:57 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magpie View Post
I actually proposed AC Doyle over a decade ago, as part of a conspiracy with GA Hentry, EW Hornung, and HG Wells.

If I remember correctly, Paul Begg found it momentarily amusing, but other than that it didn't get much traction.
Why did Hornung get a gig? Because of Raffles or being Doyle's brother in law?
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