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The Community's Collective Wisdom "Scotland Yard was really no wiser on the subject than it was 15 years ago.."-F.G.Abberline,1903. The question is...are we ?

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Old August 26th, 2015, 10:13 AM   #1
Alan Baird
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Default Metropolitan Receiver's Office 1897

Hello,
I am interested in a specific part of the civilian structure of the Metropolitan Police in approximately 1897 -1911 and in particular the ''Receiver's Office.''
The 'Receiver' or 'Receiver for the Metropolitan Police District Courts of the Metropolis,' was located at the Police Office and they were originally given this title because they received money from the rates of the Metropolitan Police District Parishes.
The Receiver was appointed by the crown :-
[a] Sir Richard Pennefather held this post between 1883 - 1909.
[b] Mr George Tripp succeeded him from 1910 - 1919.
They basically owned all of the Metropolitan Police properties and were responsible for all the purchases, sales and contracts etc and their approval and authority was required on most administrative matters and they were also equal in power/authority to the Police Commissioners.
In fact, Sir Charles Warren was known to intensely dislike having to clear every decision with this bureaucrat and especially since this bureaucrat was deemed to be of equal standing to Sir Charles Warren.
In 1886, the Receiver's Office employed 12 civilian clerks and obviously they would have been very professional and able men. I am sure their work would have been of the highest standards especially with being employed in such a powerful office.
Then I found an article [Hansard 19/6/1913] which relates to questions and answers about remunerations in the Receiver's Office, in connection to surveyors, clerks of works and tailors which might mean other skills/trades were employed, within this department?

Anyway, there is one individual ''J H Carpenter Receivers Office'' who was awarded the Met. Police Jubilee medal for 1897 and also Met. Coronation medals for 1902 and 1911.....both inscribed ''J Carpenter.''
I think he may be James Carpenter 1850/Pebmarsh, Essex - wife Lydia and recorded in the England Census of 1901 as being employed as ''Builders Foreman Clerk [Civil Service]'' and in the England Census of 1911 as being employed as ''Building clerk of Works.'' In the marriage of his daughter Beatrice Eliza Carpenter, 6/7/1907, he is recorded as being employed as a clerk. So far I can't find him with the initial of 'H,' as representing his middle name but in the earlier family census records none of his brothers or sisters have them shown but in later census records they do.
I was hoping that to find more info on the Receiver's Office and a second opinion on whether I have the right person would be helpful.
Any help would actually be gratefully appreciated.
thanks again.
Alan.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 11:26 AM   #2
Chris G.
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Hi Alan

The best of luck with this interesting enquiry. Neil Bell or Adam Wood would probably be the researchers who could answer your enquiry, given that they are the researchers who post here and who are currently delving into police history. Hopefully one of them will be able to help you. Might I ask what your particular interest is in Metropolitan Receiver's Office and J. H. Carpenter? Are you by chance related to Mr. Carpenter or do you have his Jubilee and Coronation medals that you mention?

Best regards

Chris
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Old August 26th, 2015, 12:55 PM   #3
Alan Baird
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Default Curiosity

Hello Chris,
Receiver's Office - a lot of my interest is straight forward curiosity, imagine administering the Metropolitan Police and only using the most basic of tools. The amount of paperwork and records keeping must have been massive. I read somewhere that it was only in 1896, that they finally dispensed with the regulation for a man and red flag to proceed a motor vehicle. That does not seem right but it is what I read. I do have the medals in question but one set looks just like another and for me the real value is in bringing back that individual's story.

thanks,
Alan.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 04:03 PM   #4
Chris G.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Baird View Post
Hello Chris,
Receiver's Office - a lot of my interest is straight forward curiosity, imagine administering the Metropolitan Police and only using the most basic of tools. The amount of paperwork and records keeping must have been massive. I read somewhere that it was only in 1896, that they finally dispensed with the regulation for a man and red flag to proceed a motor vehicle. That does not seem right but it is what I read. I do have the medals in question but one set looks just like another and for me the real value is in bringing back that individual's story.

thanks,
Alan.
Hi Alan

Thanks for clarifying your objectives in making the enquiry.

I would agree that in my historical research, whether it is Ripper-related, or in the area of the War of 1812, where the majority of my research and publishing have been, for me also it is the individual stories that make it all come to life -- what made people tick, as it were.

Now, while you are correct that while it seems rather primitive and amazing that, as you say, it was only in 1896, that they finally dispensed with the regulation for a man and red flag to proceed a motor vehicle, automobiles were new at that point, so perhaps that example is not so remarkable.

On the other hand, in the areas of statistics and bureaucracy, by the end of the 19th century Britain, in my view, was rather sophisticated, albeit a lot of the work still was done by hand and not with the use of machines. This was one of the things that startled me in getting into War of 1812 research -- how sophisticated recordkeeping was, even in the early decades of the 19th century.

Best regards

Chris
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Old August 26th, 2015, 05:30 PM   #5
Alan Baird
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Default Establishment

Hi Chris.
I totally agree and understand what you are saying. It is interesting to note in a previous casebook forum discussion, they quoted from the publication, ''The Rise of Scotland Yard,'' by Douglas G Browne and who recorded the establishment of the clerical staff at Scotland Yard in 1886, as being as follows :-

[a] 12 civilian clerks in the Receiver's Office.

[54 Policemen as follows..]
[b] Executive Branch 26.
[c] Public Carriage Branch 13.
[d] Lost Property Office 6.
[e] CID 7.
[f] Convict Office 2.

Total clerical staff, civilians and Policemen, equals 66.

That sounds very impressive to me.

thanks,
Alan.
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Old August 27th, 2015, 06:09 PM   #6
Alan Baird
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Default Lost and found.

Hello,
Finally worked it out and the answer was there in front of me all the time......

James Hyam Carpenter, born in Pebmarsh, in Essex, in 1850.
By the 1871 census, James is 21 and employed as a journeyman carpenter.
By the 1891 census, James is 41, married and with a family and residing at 74 Clayton Road, in Peckham and is still working as a carpenter.
We know that by the middle of 1897, he was working as a clerk, in the Receiver's Office, of the Metropolitan Police.
This is also evidenced by the 1901 census which records James as being employed as a ''Builders Foreman Clerk [Civil Service].
In the 1911 census, James is now recorded as being a ''Building Clerk of Works.''
All Metropolitan Police property was basically owned by the ''Receiver's Office'' and who better to be a building clerk dealing with such administration/matters, than a person who was previously a tradesman in the building industry.
The earlier census records ie 1851 etc relating to his brothers, did not show any middle names but when you looked closer.....2 brother had the same middle name of ''Hyam,'' and one of his sons was also was given this middle name. Therefore it is reasonable to suspect the 'H' in his name was for ''Hyam'' as well.
James Carpenter is also recorded as being a clerk in his daughters marriage certificate of 1907.Therefore I am not sure if a building clerk would have only been involved in the administration of such work or as a ''clerk of works'' his duties may have involved visiting sites or ensure the progress of the work.
bye,
Alan.
P.S apologies if there may be typing errors etc in the above.....10pm and a bit tired........
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Old August 28th, 2015, 06:28 AM   #7
Alan Baird
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Default More Hyam's

I checked this morning and it turns out that James Carpenter's mother, Harriet Carpenter, her maiden name was ''Hyam.''
Hyam is not a commonly found surname but it originates either from an old English name or from Hebrew meaning,' life.' Therefore to have Hyam as a middle name, would be quite rare and so this helps evidence the connection. In all of the census records James Carpenter is just James Carpenter and where his full name would need to be recorded ie his marriage certificate.....I could not find it anywhere. So the mystery of the missing 'H' middle name seems to be solved.
Every policeman on duty for Queen Victoria's Jubilee Parade through London was awarded the Queen Victoria Metropolitan Police Jubilee Medal for 1897 but I would think, they would have kept civilian staff on that day, to a minimium and thus only awarded a few to essential civilian workers. [public holiday for the rest] Remembering the Government paid the bill for the purchase of these medals. James Carpenter's job must have been considered as quite important with the Metropolitan Police, as in 1902 and 1911, he is again on duty for the Coronation Parades and therefore awarded two additional Coronation Medals. Well that the story so far, need a bit more research but it seems to all fit.

thanks,
Alan.
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Old August 28th, 2015, 11:49 AM   #8
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Hi Alan

Well done in your research progress. The surname "Hyam" from the maiden name of James Carpenter's mother, Harriet Carpenter, might imply that she was born Jewish, given that Hyam is a common name among the English Jewish community. But of course not necessarily so. Barnett was also a Jewish name but there is nothing to suggest that Joe Barnett, who lived with fifth canonical victim Mary Jane Kelly, was Jewish.

Best regards

Chris
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Old August 28th, 2015, 03:11 PM   #9
Alan Baird
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Default 1911 period.

Hi Chris,
Thanks you for the information and thoughts.
I previously, was mainly interested in the Metropolitan Police, before and after the 1888 murders and my interest would have waned long before reaching the 1911 period.
It's funny how we can change.
I have only just recently read, 'The Houndsditch Murders and the Siege of Sidney Street 1911,' by Donald Rumbelow. I had obviously heard of the East End Siege but never read about it. I could not put the book down and found the story fascinating.
Therefore, when along comes ''James Hyam Carpenter,'' .......he now is even more interesting to me because he was also a spectator to this famous event. I hope that all makes sense.

thanks,
Alan.
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