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The Pros & The Cons Forum for presenting arguments for or against suspects...witness statements...whether or not one or more murder victims were Ripper victims...and a whole lot more.

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Old January 25th, 2016, 06:15 AM   #11
Adam Went
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Anna:

Just to clarify, you're suggesting that it's possible that the couple Schwartz saw having the altercation (and I see no reason to disbelieve Schwartz's statement) was in fact an entirely different couple, and that the woman was not Liz? Well, we know that there were other couples in the area at a similar time thanks to other eyewitness accounts, but if this refers back to what I was saying then I do believe the woman Schwartz saw being attacked was Liz. I just believe that after he had gone on his way, Schwartz's second man, having witnessed the whole event, went over to her under the guise of being concerned for her welfare, and from there led her into the Dutfield's Yard passageway.

Cheers,
Adam.
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Old January 25th, 2016, 04:41 PM   #12
Anna Morris
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Adam: I personally believe the woman who was pulled along, who cried no, three times, etc. was Liz. However Curryong had brought up PC Smith's ID of Liz up Berner's St. and on the opposite side from where she was found. I am also aware that some argue that the woman who cried "no" was not Liz.

My ultimate reasoning is that if the woman who resisted BS-Man was not Liz and he and she went away from the area, I do not think Jack would have chosen a spot where there has recently been a disturbance, to commit murder. What I am saying is I believe PC Smith and I also believe Schwartz. BS-Man accosted Liz. He may or may not have been Jack. I think there is a good chance he was.

There are a lot of possibilities. Including that Liz wasn't Jack's victim. I think she was. If I am right I think the important point is that she most likely knew him and he knew her. She wouldn't go with him. He had to make sure she never gave evidence or information against him. He killed her and left the area rapidly, looking for other prey.
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Old January 31st, 2016, 01:34 AM   #13
Adam Went
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Hi Anna,

It seems like our thoughts aren't so far apart. I think that regardless of whether the murderer was Schwartz's first or second man (surely we can be confident that it was one of them given the time frame), that he was indeed the one who approached her, although the two different men most likely approached her under completely different pretences.

Assuming that JTR was her murderer (and, like you, I think he was), the club was still active so I don't think disturbances would have concerned him too much. If you include the entrance to the passageway of Diemschutz, that's two disturbances in a very short space of time.

Cheers,
Adam.
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Old February 1st, 2016, 11:10 AM   #14
Caroline Brown
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Hi All,

Although the ripper undoubtedly took risks, killing in locations where his victims would - in most cases - be found very quickly, one distinct advantage of this was that in each case there were other potential suspects about besides himself.

The two soldiers in Tabram's case, for example, may have had nothing to do with her murder, while the killer could have watched and waited for her to be alone again before following her and striking.

The two carmen, Lechmere and Paul, in Buck's Row, need have had nothing to do with Nichols's murder, but they were there, and therefore could have ended up being suspected, after the killer had left unseen and unheard. Had PC Neil come along while they were still pawing over the body, it could have looked bad for them in a climate of fear that the murders were gang-related.

With Stride, BS man and Pipeman would be the fall guys if A.N. Other was waiting for the coast to clear before emerging unseen to finish the job. There were also all the club members who would naturally be questioned - another bonus for the actual killer if he was never seen at the scene. I do think the lack of mutilation in Dutfield's Yard, and the limited mutilations in Buck's Row, are the likely result of the various comings and goings in those locations.

Again, it's possible that the killer followed Eddowes and the man she was seen with by Lawende and co, and was able to strike in Mitre Square as soon as the coast was clear, performing the mutilations he hadn't dared to begin in Dutfield's Yard.

With MJK, there were again more than just a couple of potential suspects around between the last reliable sighting of her alive, and when she was found dead. If Blotchy didn't do it, or Hutchinson, or the man Hutch claimed to see with the victim, or Lewis's lurker, if this was not Hutch, then once again we have a killer who may never have been seen where or when it mattered, leaving all the men who were seen in a more vulnerable position.

Love,

Caz
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Old February 1st, 2016, 10:33 PM   #15
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Yes caz, a very interesting perspective. For instance, I still feel that PC Smith's suspect may well have viewed the Dutfield Yard row with some sardonic amusement and chose to kill there afterwards. What would he care about there having been a row there just before. So much the better, in a way. As with the other murders he left behind an assorted group of potential suspects, not just BS and Pipe Man, but all those disliked and rowdy aliens in the club as well.
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Old February 1st, 2016, 11:28 PM   #16
Anna Morris
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Caz and Curryong: Great reasoning. I never thought of it quite that way. Good observations!

(Going a little bit off this thread I started, I had another thought since Curryong brought up the man seen with Liz by PC Smith. The couple was said to be up Berner St. and across the street rom where the body was found. Somewhere I can't locate right now, it was noted that one of the pocket handkerchiefs Liz had in her jacket pocket had "fruit stains". I know the whole subject of Packer and the grapes is supposed to be questionable and that Liz had not eaten grapes before she died. But I wonder if the man PC Smith saw could have been Grape-Man and if he gave her his handkerchief after he ate the grapes. That wouldn't make him Jack. I just wonder if that could fit together.)
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Old February 2nd, 2016, 01:54 AM   #17
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I agree, Packer's statements are not regarded highly by Ripper followers, (or by the police at the time). The question of the grapes is indeed problematic. However, (if Packer was honest) didn't Grape man ask about the price of the grapes and then turned to the woman and said "Which will you have, my dear, black or white? You shall have whichever you like best." Whereupon she chose the black. So it seems to have been her choice. (If she existed of course.)

It would be a bit ungallant too for the man to then gobble them up in front of her and, to top it off, offer her his fruit-stained hanky!

As I've said, the grapes are a real mystery. Drs Phillips and Blackwell found no sign of grapes and yet there is the handkerchief. Was Liz a fruit aficionado and had she eaten some apple or juicy pear early in the day that had needed some mopping up and which had by then been fully digested and processed, perhaps?
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Old February 2nd, 2016, 05:50 PM   #18
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I have thought a lot about the grapes. There is some lingering wonder about Liz' mouth, if she had any deformity, etc. I think the autopsy showed a number of missing teeth. Maybe [if it was Liz] she didn't want to eat the grapes for fear of choking. Maybe she was being polite to her escort and agreed to the black grapes but didn't really want them. Maybe she bit into one and it was sour and unpleasant so she politely encouraged her escort to eat all of them. (Only black grapes I knew when I was little were home grown Concords and they had sweet & sour spots and I didn't like them. I assume grapes in Liz' time would have been similar. You know what they say about sour grapes.)

There are lots of possibilities. Including that it never happened. Or it happened but the woman wasn't Liz.

Unfortunately the "fruit stains" on the handkerchief aren't well described. Think it was said to be a new handkerchief. Anything these women had that was new should get attention.
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Old February 8th, 2016, 03:37 AM   #19
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Liz did have money on her from work she had done earlier in the day - money which was missing upon examination of her body. So where did it go? Did she perhaps spend it on food / fruit? Or was it stolen from her in the attack Schwartz witnessed? Lots of little side points to consider but yes, Matthew Packer has been virtually entirely discredited for a reason.

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Old February 8th, 2016, 12:56 PM   #20
Anna Morris
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Liz seemed to have had a decent dinner. I always thought she kept the price of a bed and that was why she may have been turning away clients that night. I know that opens other cans of worms. If she wasn't prostituting, why was she hanging around on a dark street, talking to men? Etc. There are always the little points we don't know and if we knew those things we might better understand.

I have wondered if Liz had a male friend who was inside the club. Was she waiting for him specifically? Was she looking for a replacement for Michael Kidney? (In the same way I have wondered if MJK was looking for/interviewing a replacement for Joe Barnett.)

(If you list similarities between Liz & Mary you can find more commonalities between them than between all of the others. But in the end, I don't think these similarities lead to any answers. I started my list with things like: born outside of England, professional prostitutes at some times in their lives--as opposed to casual prostitution for the others--, etc.)
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Last edited by Anna Morris; February 8th, 2016 at 01:01 PM. Reason: add
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