Jack The Ripper Forums  - Ripperology For The 21st Century  

Go Back   Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century > Book Of The Month

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old January 25th, 2014, 07:39 PM   #11
Tom_Wescott
Researcher and Award Winning Author
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Tulsa, Ok. USA
Posts: 5,040
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonjelly View Post
In the Stride discussion, he does give a reasonable overview for the case why Stride can be argued not to be a victim of the Ripper, & I did feel the perspective is worthy of further consideration/investigation/debate.
Hi Lemon. Thanks. Which part of his Stride argument did you find 'reasonable' and 'rational' and worthy of further consideration?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
Tom_Wescott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25th, 2014, 07:53 PM   #12
Chris G.
Editor,Ripperologist Magazine
 
Chris G.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 12,256
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonjelly View Post

I can see reasons for his discussion on post Ripper serial killers, but felt it was too large a portion of the book. With his knowledge, I feel sure that he could have included more on the events of 1888, rather than discuss the Thames nudes, Yorkshire Ripper & Kurten in the level of detail that he did.
Hi again Lemonjelly

My disappointment with Don Rumbelow's original book was precisely because of the long discussion of those other cases which seemed to take up too much of the book. Now as an organizer of the 2000 first U.S. convention we felt the need to bring in a profiler to discuss modern murderers for some comparison with Jack, so I can see the reason for doing it, but still I thought Don should have concentrated more on the original 1888 case than veering off into discussion of unrelated cases. After all the cover of the book would lead one to believe it was a book just about the Jack the Ripper murders of 1888. To my mind, an improvement on his earlier book might have been to remove that unnecessary discussion of later cases.

Best regards

Chris
__________________
Christopher T. George
Co-Organizer, RipperCon in Baltimore
Editor-at-Large, Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.biz
http://blog.casebook.org/chrisgeorge
For info about RipperCon, in Baltimore, MD,
April 8-10, 2016, go to http://rippercon.com/
Chris G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 27th, 2014, 06:11 AM   #13
Caroline Morris
Author
 
Caroline Morris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,619
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
Hi Lemon. Thanks. Which part of his Stride argument did you find 'reasonable' and 'rational' and worthy of further consideration?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
I love Don to bits but I do hope he doesn't repeat the observation he made during one of his talks that the knife used to kill Stride with a single slice had no edge.

The rest is presumably speculation based on how Don thinks the killer of Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes (and possibly Kelly) would or would not have behaved in a given situation. However many other victims one includes for such a comparison, the sample will be way too small to my mind, to judge one way or another.

Love,

Caz
X
__________________
I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen
Caroline Morris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 27th, 2014, 12:54 PM   #14
Chris G.
Editor,Ripperologist Magazine
 
Chris G.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 12,256
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline Morris View Post
I love Don to bits but I do hope he doesn't repeat the observation he made during one of his talks that the knife used to kill Stride with a single slice had no edge.

The rest is presumably speculation based on how Don thinks the killer of Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes (and possibly Kelly) would or would not have behaved in a given situation. However many other victims one includes for such a comparison, the sample will be way too small to my mind, to judge one way or another.

Love,

Caz
X
Indeed, as we know, one of the pitfalls of Ripperology is to make sweeping observations on what is a very short series of murders.

All the best

Chris
__________________
Christopher T. George
Co-Organizer, RipperCon in Baltimore
Editor-at-Large, Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.biz
http://blog.casebook.org/chrisgeorge
For info about RipperCon, in Baltimore, MD,
April 8-10, 2016, go to http://rippercon.com/
Chris G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2014, 08:01 AM   #15
Lemonjelly
Researcher
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 183
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline Morris View Post
I love Don to bits but I do hope he doesn't repeat the observation he made during one of his talks that the knife used to kill Stride with a single slice had no edge.

The rest is presumably speculation based on how Don thinks the killer of Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes (and possibly Kelly) would or would not have behaved in a given situation. However many other victims one includes for such a comparison, the sample will be way too small to my mind, to judge one way or another.

Love,

Caz
X
Hi Caz,

I don't recall the no edged knife being stated in his book. For the rest - please see below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
Hi Lemon. Thanks. Which part of his Stride argument did you find 'reasonable' and 'rational' and worthy of further consideration?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
Hi Tom,

please bear with me, as I'm not as encyclopedic as most on here! I'm paraphrasing at best, so hope I don't do Don a dis-service.

Essentially, Don's discussion focuses on the behaviour of Stride + a.n. other using the several witness statements of her in the company of a male leading up to midnight. Whilst there are numerous sightings of Stride with a male, there are subtle differences between the descriptions. However, there are some similarities too. Don suggests it is possible that Stride is seen with 1 male consistently, or possibly Kidney finds Stride with another man & takes issue.

Ultimately Don puts forward that none of the other victims were spotted as frequently as Stride, & suggests it was not akin to JtR's MO to build up to an event by being seen with the potential victim. There is an acknowledgement that Kidney could have been the killer of Stride.

As a chapter, it flows well, & feels consistent. I'm not saying it is 100%, but I can see it as reasonable.

Bear in mind though that Don does this across half a chapter in his book, so I'm likely leaving out some significant information for brevity.
Lemonjelly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2014, 06:42 AM   #16
Caroline Morris
Author
 
Caroline Morris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,619
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonjelly View Post
Hi Caz,

I don't recall the no edged knife being stated in his book.
Hi Lemon,

For 'no edged' read blunt. But if he doesn't repeat this canard in the book so much the better.

Quote:
Essentially, Don's discussion focuses on the behaviour of Stride + a.n. other using the several witness statements of her in the company of a male leading up to midnight. Whilst there are numerous sightings of Stride with a male, there are subtle differences between the descriptions. However, there are some similarities too. Don suggests it is possible that Stride is seen with 1 male consistently, or possibly Kidney finds Stride with another man & takes issue.

Ultimately Don puts forward that none of the other victims were spotted as frequently as Stride, & suggests it was not akin to JtR's MO to build up to an event by being seen with the potential victim. There is an acknowledgement that Kidney could have been the killer of Stride.
The difficulty I have with all this is that it puts the focus on Stride's movements before her killer found her at the club and cut her throat. It's all about her behaviour; there is no way to tell if her killer was or was not one of the males in her company earlier, or had ever met her before he went in for the kill. For all Don can know, he could have spotted her for the first time at the entrance to the yard and simply couldn't resist the opportunity for a bit of knife practice. He may or may not have been the broad-shouldered man described by Schwartz accosting Stride.

In short, Don has to speculate from nothing to identify any of the players that night as the killer. Then he has to plot this man's movements and judge his behaviour that night, in order to conclude his MO was not like the ripper's. He is relying wholly on one or more witnesses having seen the killer with Stride, even though nobody saw an actual murder.

I'll leave Tom to deal with the rotting Kidney angle.

Love,

Caz
X
__________________
I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen
Caroline Morris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2014, 07:33 PM   #17
Tom_Wescott
Researcher and Award Winning Author
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Tulsa, Ok. USA
Posts: 5,040
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline Morris View Post
I love Don to bits but I do hope he doesn't repeat the observation he made during one of his talks that the knife used to kill Stride with a single slice had no edge.
All that and more. Most of the usual Stride errors are in there. But now that they have the Rumbelow stamp on them they'll be twice as hard to disspell.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
Tom_Wescott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2014, 07:36 PM   #18
Tom_Wescott
Researcher and Award Winning Author
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Tulsa, Ok. USA
Posts: 5,040
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonjelly View Post
Hi Caz,

I don't recall the no edged knife being stated in his book. For the rest - please see below...



Hi Tom,

please bear with me, as I'm not as encyclopedic as most on here! I'm paraphrasing at best, so hope I don't do Don a dis-service.

Essentially, Don's discussion focuses on the behaviour of Stride + a.n. other using the several witness statements of her in the company of a male leading up to midnight. Whilst there are numerous sightings of Stride with a male, there are subtle differences between the descriptions. However, there are some similarities too. Don suggests it is possible that Stride is seen with 1 male consistently, or possibly Kidney finds Stride with another man & takes issue.

Ultimately Don puts forward that none of the other victims were spotted as frequently as Stride, & suggests it was not akin to JtR's MO to build up to an event by being seen with the potential victim. There is an acknowledgement that Kidney could have been the killer of Stride.

As a chapter, it flows well, & feels consistent. I'm not saying it is 100%, but I can see it as reasonable.

Bear in mind though that Don does this across half a chapter in his book, so I'm likely leaving out some significant information for brevity.
Hi Lemon. Of course I have his book and know what he says. And I know it SEEMS consistent and SEEMS reasonable, but much of it is flawed or blatantly in error. And even the errors are not original to Don but borrowed from other authors. Stride was not with one man all evening, was not killed with a blunt knife, and was not killed by Michael Kidney, who looked nothing like BS Man and who had an alibi for the murder. I'm sure his section on films or whatnot is accurate.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
Tom_Wescott is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2014 Week 4 : January 25-January 31st Howard Brown Weekly Caption Contest 53 February 10th, 2014 07:52 PM
Week of January 4th, 2010 Debbie D Weekly Caption Contest 18 January 13th, 2010 03:29 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10 Beta 2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright @ Howard & Nina Brown 2015-2022