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Old June 6th, 2014, 05:05 AM   #11
Mark Nutter
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It truely is John however it has been stuck in a garage for many many years now and I think its perhaps better to be on display or in the hands of a real Ripper enthusiast hence why Im asking for advice around the sale of the item and its true value.
I understand that items of this nature are difficult to place a value on but surely there is a market for this kind of memorabilia. This artifact is completely unique and nothing else really excists surrounding this building. The Goulston Graffitti was erased prior to photographs being taken and I heard that the piece of blood stained apron from one of the Rippers victims which was found in the stairwell of the building was placed in the Black Museum in Scotland Yard and has since disappeared!

After doing some research I found that a last year a sign which read "N GOULSTON STREET E" sold at auction in the UK but i feel that the sign we possess is far more important. Who knows the Ripper himself may have even touched it!!

Cheers
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Old June 6th, 2014, 07:43 AM   #12
Rob Clack
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Not to put a dampener on things but was this sign on the building in 1888?

I seriously doubt that myself and would like to see some provenance that it was. Otherwise it is just an interesting artifact.

Rob
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Old June 6th, 2014, 08:04 AM   #13
Mark Nutter
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Hi Rob

I am of the opinion that the sign was on the building at the time of the muders as at Catherine Eddowes inquest PC Long explained how at 2:55am he came across a piece of the blood stained apron in the doorway to numbers 108-119. After doing some research this appears to be well documented along with all of the original photographs of the buildings.
With this in mind I am a strong believer that this sign witnessed quite alot in the early hours of 30th September 1888!

Thanks
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Old June 6th, 2014, 10:34 AM   #14
Robert Linford
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Hi Mark

As you intend to sell this item, I'm just checking that you do realise that the 'Double Event' itself didn't occur in Goulston St - that site is important only for the chalked writing and apron piece.

Forgive me if I ask the obvious, but your first post seemed to suggest that you believed that the sign witnessed JTR at his murderous work.
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Old June 6th, 2014, 10:47 AM   #15
Rob Clack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Nutter View Post
Hi Rob

I am of the opinion that the sign was on the building at the time of the muders as at Catherine Eddowes inquest PC Long explained how at 2:55am he came across a piece of the blood stained apron in the doorway to numbers 108-119. After doing some research this appears to be well documented along with all of the original photographs of the buildings.
With this in mind I am a strong believer that this sign witnessed quite alot in the early hours of 30th September 1888!

Thanks
Hi Mark,

I know all that but no sign is mentioned just numbering. So we don't know how he knew they were numbered.

Original photos? You need to clarify that as far as I am aware there are no photos from the 1888 period. I have seen postcards of the building from the early 1900s and photos of the building opposite and none have fhe sign or anything similar.

Rob
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Old June 6th, 2014, 12:21 PM   #16
Chris G.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Nutter View Post
Hi Rob

I am of the opinion that the sign was on the building at the time of the muders as at Catherine Eddowes inquest PC Long explained how at 2:55am he came across a piece of the blood stained apron in the doorway to numbers 108-119. After doing some research this appears to be well documented along with all of the original photographs of the buildings.
With this in mind I am a strong believer that this sign witnessed quite alot in the early hours of 30th September 1888!

Thanks
Hi Mark

I agree with Rob Clack that there are no 1888 photographs of the Dwellings to be certain that the same sign was on the Model Dwellings at the time of the murders, although it might have been. It was though a regular occurrence that street signs would be updated from period to period, so we might not be able to be certain the sign was there at the time of the murders.

At the risk of being persnickety, to correct the statement you made in your original post, the Goulston Street location is not where the murders of Stride and Eddowes took place. Rather the murders of the two women took place separately some time apart and streets away from where the apron piece and graffiti were found. Moreover, strictly speaking, as far as we know, the two artifacts have only a direct tie to the Eddowes murder and not the Stride murder because we cannot be certain that the same murderer killed both women.

Best regards

Chris
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Old June 6th, 2014, 12:52 PM   #17
Mark Nutter
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Hi Chris

My first post does appear a little miss leading and Im not on this forum pretending I know everything about the case because I certainly do not. I am aware that the murders didnt actually take place in the building but nether the less it still holds some importance with the graffitti and apron etc.

Like I said what I do know is that the sign was collected from the building and PC Long makes reference to the numbers in his account. Im not trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes here I have no reason to do that I just wanted some advice.

Thank you
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Old June 6th, 2014, 12:54 PM   #18
Lynn Cates
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Hello Chris. Well spoke.

Cheers.
LC
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Old June 6th, 2014, 03:44 PM   #19
Phillip Walton
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If you require an evaluation I would suggest you take it to an auctioneer, failing that check to see if the 'Antiques Roadshow' is in your area. The provenance although very good is not watertight. An expert on enamel signs might be able to tell you if it dates from the right period. Very little now remains of the sites associated with the murders, most if not all of the buildings have now gone.
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Old June 7th, 2014, 07:14 AM   #20
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Speaking as someone who has bought and sold collectable items for many years now I see several problems with this. The value of any item can be determined at two levels. One what is the value as it is? For example if we have a gold ring what is the value of the gold contained in the ring. This is known as intrinsic value. Secondly we have attached value. If the gold ring can be proved to have been worn by Queen Victoria then the value is increased by its association with a famous person or event. If you have an ordinary steel spoon it might be worth £1, if it came from the Titanic, probably thousands.
Looking at the sign the intrinsic value is probably no more than £20 being a very ordinary vintage sign. However if it can be shown to be the sign that was hanging in that stairwell when Jack the Ripper dropped the piece of apron under it that is a different matter altogether. This is where the problems start.

1. Is there any proof that on that night a sign of this type hung in the stairwell?
2. If that can be shown is there any proof that his was the actual sign? Donít forget it doesnít give an address but a number sequence. How often is that number sequence duplicated worldwide?

The answer to these questions must be no. My own opinion is that it is not the sign that hung in the stairwell on that night. The sign is enamel, an expensive process and unlikely to have been used in a slum area of Whitechapel. I would have expected the sign hanging there in 1888 to have been painted wood, possible changed to cast iron somewhere around the turn of the century, and changed to enamel sometime interwar.
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