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Old June 7th, 2014, 07:45 AM   #21
Chris G.
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Speaking as someone who has bought and sold collectable items for many years now I see several problems with this. The value of any item can be determined at two levels. One what is the value as it is? For example if we have a gold ring what is the value of the gold contained in the ring. This is known as intrinsic value. Secondly we have attached value. If the gold ring can be proved to have been worn by Queen Victoria then the value is increased by its association with a famous person or event. If you have an ordinary steel spoon it might be worth £1, if it came from the Titanic, probably thousands.
Looking at the sign the intrinsic value is probably no more than £20 being a very ordinary vintage sign. However if it can be shown to be the sign that was hanging in that stairwell when Jack the Ripper dropped the piece of apron under it that is a different matter altogether. This is where the problems start.

1. Is there any proof that on that night a sign of this type hung in the stairwell?
2. If that can be shown is there any proof that his was the actual sign? Donít forget it doesnít give an address but a number sequence. How often is that number sequence duplicated worldwide?

The answer to these questions must be no. My own opinion is that it is not the sign that hung in the stairwell on that night. The sign is enamel, an expensive process and unlikely to have been used in a slum area of Whitechapel. I would have expected the sign hanging there in 1888 to have been painted wood, possible changed to cast iron somewhere around the turn of the century, and changed to enamel sometime interwar.
Great post, Bob!

Cheers

Chris
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Old June 7th, 2014, 09:22 AM   #22
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Thanks Bob...and thank you Rob Clack !
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Old June 7th, 2014, 01:26 PM   #23
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There is a photograph of the Wentworth Model Dwellings in Clack/Hutchinson's book dated 1907 that appears to me to show what could be the address signs on the opposite side of the entrances, and lower down on the jamb, then where we are accustomed to seeing the sign in the later photographs of the site. If so, then at least we can say that the original placement of the signs had changed since 1888, and I would agree that chances are very likely that the signs had gone through a few replacements as well.

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Old June 7th, 2014, 05:30 PM   #24
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Hi Mark and welcome to the Forums,

That is a really cool item and thank you for sharing. Yes it certainly appears to be the sign that was there in the 1970's. Also pictured on page 132 of the book Scotland Yard Investigates by Evans & Rumbelow, photo credited to Richard Whittington-Egan. The caption says "the doorway of the New Model Dwellings at 108-19 Goulston Street, Whitechapel, as it appeared virtually unchanged, in the 1970's."

The doorway. But that doesn't mean this particular sign was there in 1888, as the experts such as Rob and Bob have suggested here. And I defer to their opinion of course. Your sign was probably installed sometime when this was the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney 1900-1965.

Nonetheless, it is a very interesting item. Your father's account of how he obtained it rings true. And I think it will bring a good price. In fact, for a Ripper enthusiast with a little dough to spend, this would be a really really neat thing to have hanging in his man-cave.

And again, thanks for sharing.

Roy
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Old June 7th, 2014, 06:01 PM   #25
Mark Nutter
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Cheers Roy - in fact thank you to everyone who has posted a reply on this thread I enjoy reading everyones comments on the item and find the history so facinating. I would have never of guessed that a rusty, battered up sign would hold so much history. You guys really do know your stuff and Im learning something new everyday!
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Old June 8th, 2014, 10:21 AM   #26
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Default Punch Cartoons.

I have a set of four of these, genuine Punch cartoons, framed and ready to hang for £55 and this includes UK shipping. Too heavy to ship abroad unless you want them out of the frames. I should point out the picture is of facsimile cartoons I sell for £6.50 shipping included.
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Old June 8th, 2014, 10:22 AM   #27
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Default Punch Bound copies.

I also have bound copies of Punch with all the cartoons from £60 which includes shipping to the UK.
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Old June 8th, 2014, 02:36 PM   #28
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Wentworth Model Dwellings were built to a high standard with different types of brickwork used to make coloured and ornate bands and frames to windows and corners. A lot of effort was clearly made to make the buildings look nice, much more than for slum dwellings.
The quality of the workmanship and attention to detail on the buildings is not a reason for the sign not being there in 1888.
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Old June 8th, 2014, 03:05 PM   #29
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This is the 1907 photo I mentioned in my above post with what I believe could possibly be address signs in a different location than where they were placed later in the century.



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Old June 8th, 2014, 04:30 PM   #30
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This is the 1907 photo I mentioned in my above post...
Looks like whopping great chalk graffiti was commonplace, too:

Name:  goulston-chalk.jpg
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Couldn't resist
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