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Old February 11th, 2008, 11:41 AM   #1
Writer & A Gentleman From The South
Vila's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 254
Default Chat Log: 2-10-2008

Session Start: Sun Feb 10 11:26:07 2008
Session Ident: #JTRForums
* Now talking in #JTRForums
* web.ircstorm.net sets mode: +nt
* Retrieving #JTRForums modes...
* Vila changes topic to 'JTRForums Chatroom: Wherefore art thou, Topic?'
* Vila changes topic to 'JTRForums Chat - Topic: What do you believe, and why?'
* Dan has joined #JTRForums
* ChrisGeorge has joined #JTRForums
(ChrisGeorge) Hello, Dan and Vila... feeling schizophrenic?
(Vila) Hiya Chris.
(Vila) I think that might be Dan Norder.
(Vila) I've only got the one chat window open. Plus, I saw that he was reading one of the chatroom threads this morning.
* Looking up Dan user info...
(ChrisGeorge) Oh yes okay
(Vila) Yep, my look-up of the nickname revealed it to be Mr. Norder.
(ChrisGeorge) Fair enough
* kelly has joined #JTRForums
(Vila) Hello, kelly.
* Looking up kelly user info...
(kelly) Hello
(ChrisGeorge) Hello Kelly
(kelly) Hi Chris
* Dan plays sci-fi sound
(ChrisGeorge) Intrigued by this Southport report about an alleged bag belonging to Jame Maybrick http://www.southportforums.com/forum...ad.php?t=19486 but it looks like a clear hoax to me
(Vila) Well, this looks promising.
(kelly) I think that was Dan's way of saying hello
(ChrisGeorge) Hello Dan... coming in from outer space?
(kelly) The bag actually says "J.M. Jack"on it?!
(Vila) Yeah, sounds like a hoax, all right.
* Dan has quit IRC (Client exited)
* Dannnnn has joined #JTRForums
(kelly) Dan's having connection troubles
(Vila) I didn't realize that there was going to be a Ripper podcast today, too.
(Dannnnn) And a trailing N again
(ChrisGeorge) Hello Dan
(Vila) LOL!
(Dannnnn) heya
(Vila) He speaks!
(ChrisGeorge) "J.M. Jack" yes pretty stupid really
(Vila) Welcome back, Dan.
(Dannnnn) For some reason FireFox for Mac doesn't like the chatroom
(ChrisGeorge) As I asked, what has happened with that bag in the last five years and how come none of us know about it?
(Dannnnn) back on good ol' archaic Internet Explorer
(Vila) Ah, that sounds like a winner.
(ChrisGeorge) Well you're in now mate
(kelly) and what's the bag supposed to be?
(Dannnnn) the JM Jack bag? what was up with that?
(kelly) Who monograms a sack?
(ChrisGeorge) Like a hippie bag or something from the Sixties
(ChrisGeorge) Maybe supposed to carry the Diary in it?
(Dannnnn) 6
(kelly) LOL or arsenic
(Vila) And his portable surgery?
(ChrisGeorge) It just looks like a set up
(kelly) Oh, I know: kidneys and such
(ChrisGeorge) I think there is a little industry hoaxing up these things
(kelly) Yup
(Dannnnn) yeah, the watch stand and the Tumblety watch were very dodgy
(Vila) I wouldn't be surprised. Hoaxing is a thing that some people just love to do.
(ChrisGeorge) Like the Tumblety watch,exactly, Dan
(kelly) They're always so stupidly done
(ChrisGeorge) People want to own these things but it doesn't mean they are real
(Vila) Well, I wouldn't say "always" but I agree.
(ChrisGeorge) Also that London map on e-bay recently that had the murder sites marked
(kelly) An artifact that just had James Maybrick's name on it would be just as valuable and seem less fake
(ChrisGeorge) I agree, Kelly
(ChrisGeorge) The "Jack" association makes it even more fishy
(kelly) Yup
(ChrisGeorge) But people are going to make money on these things whether we like it or not
(Vila) Yes, a normal 1880s version of a briefcase would be far less "hoaxy" looking.
(ChrisGeorge) I agree
(Vila) What was in use then) Gladstone bags? Carpet bags?
(ChrisGeorge) But it wouldn't be as sexy
(Dannnnn) 6 what all are we supposed to believe was in the bag? diary, watch.... cat?
(kelly) We covered that, Dan...
(ChrisGeorge) Yes the Gladstone bag would be almost the cliche conveyance
(Vila) Shrodenger's scalpel?
(ChrisGeorge) But a Gladstone Bag would be more of the period
(ChrisGeorge) This doesn't even look Victorian
(Vila) Thanks.
(kelly) At least the bag doesn't have the victims initials on it
(ChrisGeorge) A small mercy
(Vila) Yes, that would be too much.
(kelly) Dan, are you still on?
(Vila) Well, to approach the topic at a tangent, why do people believe in such hoaxes?
(Dannnnn) I am here, yeah
(ChrisGeorge) I always say something happens to the head when people get involved with the Ripper and logic goes out the window
(Dannnnn) was trying to sort out the chatroom commands
(Vila) Is it just a desire for some new evidence to show up?
(kelly) do they, really?
(ChrisGeorge) I suppose its a thirst to believe
(kelly) I mean do serious ripper people really believe in these things?
(ChrisGeorge) You see it with people with suspects but also people who want to believe a theory of any kind really
(ChrisGeorge) No I'm not saying real Ripper scholars would believe it
(ChrisGeorge) But still people believe Jack wrote letters or Jack wrote the graffito etc
(Vila) I'd like to believe that Ripperologists were a bit more able of critical thinking than UFO nuts, but evidence seems to indicate otherwise.
(ChrisGeorge) ... when there really isn't any clear evidence he did either
(kelly) they believe it because they've read it or heard it and haven;t looked any deeper
(Vila) That's true.
(kelly) people believe Taft got stuck in a bathtub
(Dannnnn) well, depends upon the individuals... there are whole different types of people with interest in the field
(ChrisGeorge) Yes the old myths still have a stranglehold on the case
(Vila) Indeed. Wide field, lots of different levels of interest.
(ChrisGeorge) I think people who have read widely would probably not believe the myths but people who have read some but not a lot might do so
(Vila) Like the Royals theory. How many times has Prince Eddy been shown to have been in Scotland during most of the murders? Yet people still love that theory.
(kelly) I got asked about that yesterday by a co-worker
(ChrisGeorge) Yes the Royal theory still has adherents
(Vila) Or Sickert? Even though it was Art Historians that disproved that one. And 90 days before Cornwell's book hit the shelves.
(kelly) that's more to do with the desire to see the rich and famous mucked up than with the actual ripper
(ChrisGeorge) I do think that the Royal theory vaulted the Ripper case into a new sphere in terms of worldwide interest, whether it was true or not
(kelly) the royals i mean
(Vila) Can you expand on that, Kelly?
(ChrisGeorge) If you say a prince of the Realm was involved, virtually anyone could be Jack
(kelly) people love to see the dirt on famous people
(Dannnnn) 6 the conspiracy crowd loves a good story
(kelly) royal scandals sell papers today
(Vila) Just like today, and the Enquirer, etc.
(ChrisGeorge) I think that the idea that Jack could be a gent or at least a gentleman, set up Maybrick
(Vila) You could be right, Chris.
(ChrisGeorge) I mean a Royal or at least a gent...
(kelly) makes me wonder..
(Vila) Some people would rather see a rich/famous suspect than an ordinary person?
(kelly) if in the same way people of the time thought it couldn't be a Englishman...
(ChrisGeorge) The idea that Jack was a well to do middle class man who led a normal life but who led a double life
(Dannnnn) 6 famous people are easier to research
(kelly) Yes! Making him a royal or a wealth person makes him "other"
(Vila) Sort of like Ted Bundy, Chris?
(ChrisGeorge) Though we all know more likely he was just some nameless working class type
(Vila) And I agree with you too, Dan.
(ChrisGeorge) Right Ted Bundy type is a possibility but that again is a stereotype
(ChrisGeorge) The witness sightings point to a local man
(kelly) it ties in a little with the idea of Jack being cunning, and poor people seen as less intelligent stereotypically
(Vila) Well, it's an example that would be familiar to most researchers of serial killers.
(ChrisGeorge) I have alway said that the guy must have had something persuasive about him, something that reassured his victims
(Vila) Charisma?
(ChrisGeorge) Policeman, social worker, clergyman, or yes just charisma maybe
(Dannnnn) money
(kelly) or maybe just the dough.
(Dannnnn) lol
(ChrisGeorge) The idea that it could have been a woman, or a man in woman's clothing
(ChrisGeorge) The fact that he was able to get away with it time and time again
(Vila) Ah yes, wasn't Conan Doyle credited with that theory?
(ChrisGeorge) That's right Vila
(kelly) i know he had it...was he the first?
(kelly) i think some of the letters from the public suggested as much
(Vila) He may not have been the first, but he was the one who was the best known, perhaps.
(ChrisGeorge) Tumblety, D'Onston, or Maybrick seem unlikely somehow because each of them would have been noticed
(ChrisGeorge) It isn't enough to say any one of them could have used a disguise
(ChrisGeorge) Look at the height of D'Onston and Tumblety...
(Vila) Or Gull's age and his history of illness.
(kelly) back to jack as unlikely to be a rich guy...
(kelly) i often read that it was trendy for rich guys to go slumming in the east end for kicks
(ChrisGeorge) I think Gull is highly unlikely
(kelly) how frequent was that?
(ChrisGeorge) If it was Gull you would almost need the carriage driven by Netley
(ChrisGeorge) But this killer was on foot
(ChrisGeorge) So someone agile and fit
(Vila) Slumming... Would they have dressed-down, so as not to appear to be so wealthy?
(kelly) i don't know
(ChrisGeorge) That's the theory
(ChrisGeorge) but it seems a stretch to me
(kelly) it seems like a stretch, yes
(ChrisGeorge) That's what anyone with a middle class suspect says.. whether it's Harrison, Cornwell, or Stewart Evans
(kelly) i wonder though if we're too quick to toss out the rich guy idea just because most of the rich guy theories are so crappy
(ChrisGeorge) So for example, Tumblety would have to stoop down. Give me a break
(Vila) That's possible, Kelly.
(Dannnnn) I just think a rich person would likely have worked in a wider area... there were prostitutes everywhere
(kelly) and it's sort of the sign of a "real Ripperologist" to believe it's a regular dude
(kelly) yes, i agree Dan. and i think it's a regular guy, too, I'm just questioning why
(ChrisGeorge) That's true, Dan. Why just the East End?
(ChrisGeorge) And that's always been my objection to Maybrick... why didn't he do any murders in Liverpool?
(ChrisGeorge) The locus of the crimes almost argues for a local man
(kelly) Agreed
(Vila) I suppose that it is possible that if there were a social fashion for rich guys to go slumming in Whitechapple, then if JTR was a wealthy or upper-middle class gent, he might adopt that so as to fit in with his social circle.
(Vila) Just do his killing when his peers were somewhere else.
(kelly) i don't know very much about the custom,but I'd like to
(ChrisGeorge) Such "slumming" was an accepted custom of the day. But...
(kelly) i do believe they did it in groups
(ChrisGeorge) It happened in the Five Points area of New York as well
(Dannnnn) groups would be safer, obviously, but Jack London, for example, did it on his own later, if you can call what he did that
(ChrisGeorge) And American newspaper accounts spoke of people doing it in the East End of London
(Vila) "Lord Balderdash can't come with me to pick up prostitutes tonight. Oh well, I think I'll go by myself and see if I can kill one or two of them..."
(kelly) what I'm getting at is this: one of the objections to a well-to-do ripper is the attention he would attract. If it was a fad for rich guys to hang around in the east end, then wouldn't people be used to it?
(kelly) "oh, just another slumming rich man?"
(Vila) I think that they would *get* used to it. Eventually. I wonder how quickly that would happen, though?
(Dannnnn) probably certain areas more than others
(ChrisGeorge) Stewart always says all types of people were about in the East End at all times of night but of course that justifies Tumblety. I just think people would be more likely to remember such a person
(Dannnnn) I imagine they'd still be noticed even if they weren't rare
(kelly) that's true
(kelly) and like i say, i don't believe it was a rich guy
(ChrisGeorge) Again, the description given by Lawende doesn't match anyone like that
(Vila) The best suspect ought to be someone who was un-noticeable in the area.
(kelly) but sometimes i wonder how much i subscribe to merely because it's AGAINST what the crackpots think
(Dannnnn) crackpots get some things right.... through sheer luck if nothing else
(Vila) Like a broken clock: right twice a day without even trying?
(Dannnnn) probably not even as dependably as that, but yeah :-)
(Vila) There have been so many Ripper theories, so many suspects, so many proposed motives - Someone must have been right about different parts of the mystery, even if by accident.
(ChrisGeorge) Maybe
(ChrisGeorge) The solution though may be something no one has dreamed of though
(Dannnnn) I'd be curious about what hasn't been dreamed up at this point, with so many theories out there
(Vila) Oh, I agree. I was just pointing out that the sheer number of possibilities involved makes it more likely that someone actually *has* gotten *some* of the details correct.
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(kelly) some of them have to be
(Vila) Tim!
(kelly) Tim?
(WTM) Hello, all.
(Dannnnn) hey
(Vila) Been a good chat so far.
(WTM) thought I would pop in for a bit to see the maiden voyage off.
(kelly) is this the maiden voyage?
(WTM) Of course, I saw the Titanic off too
(Vila) Well, we had a chat last week, but it wasn't announced until it had already started.
(kelly) like a "come as you are" party
(ChrisGeorge) Hello Tim
(WTM) 'ello, CG
(Vila) Exactly. Luckily, no one was in the bath when chat-time rolled around.
(ChrisGeorge) Glug glug glug
(kelly) Chris is in the bath right now
(WTM) I have been out of town for over a week and so cannot stay long
(ChrisGeorge) With my rubber ducky
(WTM) so you don't believe in that bag, eh, CG?
(kelly) do you?
(Vila) Well, I'll post the log of the chat, once we're finished. You'll be happy to know that I'll run it through a spell-check first, though. LOL!
(ChrisGeorge) Just seems to good to be true
(WTM) i believe it is a bag all right, kelly
(kelly) whew! I'm a one-finger typist
(ChrisGeorge) But then that's what I thought about the Diary in the first place
(kelly) lol Tim
(ChrisGeorge) But it's just a bit odd that the post was five years ago and we haven't heard about the bag since then
(WTM) but I have to admit that I thought it was just some more maybrickana that I had not known about
(ChrisGeorge) Actually its the first time I heard the report of the bag
(Dannnnn) oh, yeah, like the Maybrick cross? I'd forgotten about that
(ChrisGeorge) Tom Slemen does some of his writing out of the Southport area
(kelly) I'm not sure it is a bag --could be a photo album being used as a bag
(Dannnnn) or whatever we call that thing
(WTM) but I knew you lot would appreciate it
(ChrisGeorge) The Maybrick cross came out of the Graham household and was supposedly with the Diary in the truck with the tropical gear
(kelly) i don't know about the cross
(ChrisGeorge) In the trunk I mean
(Dannnnn) I'm holding out for the autographed Ripper skull personally
(Vila) LOL
(ChrisGeorge) It's yours whenever it turns up Dan
(WTM) maybe you should call this a jackmoot instead , Vila, to attract some of the ring-nuts
(kelly) i don't get anything looking up "Maybrick cross" on casebook
(ChrisGeorge) You can Gull some of the people some of the time. . .
(ChrisGeorge) It was discussed on the old boards may not have been discussed recently
(WTM) so no one has ever heard tell of that bag?
(Vila) I don't think that anyone has ever suggested that JRRT was JTR. Wrong age, for one.
(Dannnnn) the cross came and went, kind of like the Abberline diary, nobody talks about it much
(ChrisGeorge) Supposedly the nuns in the Providence Row shelter used the same cross
(kelly) does it say "I am Jack"on it or some such?
(ChrisGeorge) I think it was just one of those things of convenience to boost the case for the Diary
(Vila) And why should anyone believe that JTR would offer a confession on some personal article that he owned?
(ChrisGeorge) No inscription... just a skull at the bottom of the cross
(kelly) funny that all the stuff that's supposed to "boost the case" makes it look lamer
(kelly) like the watch
(WTM) actually, one person does still talk frequently about the Abberline diary
(kelly) the guy who has it?
(Vila) Con men seem to be fond of adding details to their props/spiels that are intended to make the con look more believable. Usually, those extras just weaken the con, instead.
(WTM) Er, Karen Trenouth, who believes it to be authentic
(Dannnnn) Oh, fun
(kelly) Oh, I had no idea.
(kelly) Then it must be real.
(Vila) Karen seems to believe in all manner of impossible things. Before, during, and well after breakfast.
(Dannnnn) well, people who are likely to be conned and willing to believe tend to fall for new "evidence" easier
(WTM) she even quotes it extensively in support of her theory
(Vila) That goes right back to that "will to believe" that we were talking about earlier.
(ChrisGeorge) Right
(kelly) it requires a certain level of credulity
(Vila) Some folks want to "solve/have solved" the case that they grasp at any straw that comes 'round.
(kelly) its like they're dealing with a movie rather than facts: ooh, i think it's the old guy...look, he owns a knife, now he's making creepy faces...
(kelly) evidence!
(ChrisGeorge) I think that's true
(Vila) So what we're saying is that it's just human nature to accept some things that, upon reflection, might look "hoaxy" to a more critical observer?
(ChrisGeorge) As I said before with some people who get involved in this case a certain madness takes over
(Vila) That's a good observation, Kelly.
(WTM) plus Pride of Ownership has everything to do with it
(kelly) pride of ownership plays a bigger role than it should
(ChrisGeorge) You find something that appears to point to one suspect and suddenly that becomes "The Truth"
(Vila) Some folks do use a sort of "cinematic" level of judgment in different areas of Ripperology.
(WTM) If Stewart Evans and Paul Feldman had switched places for an event in 1993, how do you think that SPE would feel about the diary today?
(ChrisGeorge) I would like to think that Stewart is a bit more level headed than Feldman was
(kelly) i think Cornwell uses it a lot: she points out how evil she thinks Sickert looks, as if it's so obvious he's the villain
(Dannnnn) like a Freaky Friday thing?
(Vila) I wouldn't know how to answer that, Tim.
(ChrisGeorge) But again you start to believe in something and you believe it even despite the evidence otherwise
(WTM) Okay, how would SPE feel about Tumblety if, say, Martin Fido had discovered the Littlechild Letter?
(Vila) I was just trying to frame that very example, Kelly. Thank you. You put it into words better than I could.
(WTM) and nothing - NOTHING - could ever have shaken Feldman's belief in the Diary
(ChrisGeorge) That's hard to say Tim because it was the purchase of the Littlechild letter that led to Stewart writing his book
(Vila) Cornwell's main failing might well be that she's a mystery novelist. She *expects* the pieces to neatly fall into place so that the villain can be caught in the final chapter.
(ChrisGeorge) I agree with that Vila
(kelly) some of that is just gut...there are people who believe the diary is real who didn't discover it
(Dannnnn) Mrm, well, if Martin had found it he'd probably not have put stock in it, so there'd still have been room for Stewart to make it his own
(ChrisGeorge) Right I don't think there would have been much difference if Fido had the letter
(Dannnnn) perhaps some difference if someone who would have advanced Tumblety had found it instead, maybe
(ChrisGeorge) There's a case to be made that the case for Tumblety today is far less strong than it was when Stewart wrote his book
(Vila) I think that as long as the letter *was* discovered, the different personalities involved in the aftermath would still play out in nearly the same way that actually occurred.
(Dannnnn) I think being known as the primary advocate for a position makes people support the position more strongly in public
(kelly) that's a good point
(Vila) Some things would have been different, but in a general way events would have followed reality.
(WTM) of course, my point is that the discoverer of these things or suspects feels much differently about them than anyone else does
(ChrisGeorge) For example since Colonel Dunham aka Sanford Conover has been shown to be a con man and not a reliable witness
(Vila) A sense of "ownership", so to speak?
(WTM) BTW, CG, I just made a post especially for you
(ChrisGeorge) So that's the tale of the cabinet with the uteruses put under question
(ChrisGeorge) I'll check it out, Tim, thanks
(Dannnnn) well, ownership, an "if I don't support it who will?" thing... I tend not to bother to argue for positions that I see are already well covered by others
(ChrisGeorge) ... also the tale about how Tumblety hated women
(Vila) So-ad-so brought this bit of evidence to public knowledge, and their reputation affects the way others view that evidence?
(ChrisGeorge) Sure it does
(kelly) but some people don't always say publicly what they really believe...
(ChrisGeorge) Evans and Gainey reported Colonel Dunham's tale as if he had an impeccable reputation
(ChrisGeorge) But he didn't.... he was a Confederate spy and con man with a reputation much like Tumblety's
(Dannnnn) I think a lot of the problems with Evans and Gainey's book is that they were essentially paid to go find the pro side, which is understandable
(Vila) Hmmm... That would mean that if a known crackpot found some real evidence, they would not get the same consideration that a reputable researcher who had been fooled by a hoaxed piece of evidence would.
(Dannnnn) some of the problems with it we can't fault them for just because we know better now
(ChrisGeorge) If he had been an upright citizen it was one thing but it's likely that at the least he sold his story to the newspaper if not lied
(kelly) like i was saying earlier...that's why i try to question positions i have solely because they are anti-the-crazy-guys
(ChrisGeorge) Well Dan that's the nature of suspect books isn't it?
(Dannnnn) but then there are some people who just refuse to believe the new information - Some people cling desperately to the uterus stories
(Dannnnn) and so forth
(Dannnnn) problem with the suspect books, which is a problem with the standard publishing model
(ChrisGeorge) Any suspect book is going to, whether the author intends it or not, emphasize evidence for their suspect while de-emphasizing evidence against
(ChrisGeorge) Who's Global?
(kelly) did we miss them?
(kelly) is everybody in the bathroom?
(Dannnnn) I think Deb McDonald's book is a good example of a suspect-oriented book that breaks the mode
(Vila) Nope.
(Vila) How so, Dan?
(kelly) oh, yes, Dan
(Dannnnn) just that you look at it and think it's going to be another nutty royal conspiracy book and its not
(Vila) That sounds good.
(Vila) I like it when writers break out of the expected mold.
(Dannnnn) it's overall very fair with most of its assessments but just happens to be focused on an individual... kind of an anti-suspect book, even
(kelly) it's about the case against eddy..with the conclusion being: he didn't do it!
* ChrisGeorge has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
(kelly) Chris is toweling off
(Vila) LOL! Well, that *is* a refreshing bit of news.
(Vila) The McDonald book, I meant.
(kelly) lol
(Dannnnn) JK Stephen is the main focus, which brings in Eddy and Druitt roundaboutly... so we learn lots of info about Stephen that isn't just attempts to paint his as evil
(kelly) oops. i haven't read it; just heard you talk about it
(Vila) Chris has been having trouble getting used to the flash-chat applet.
(Vila) That's very interesting, Dan. I'll have to look for that book sometime.
(Dannnnn) I guess those books on Druitt might be semi anti-suspect as well
(Vila) Wow! 90 minutes into the chat and we're still on topic!
(Dannnnn) Leighton I think... but then conversely he adds some bizarre info that's supposed to be the alternate truth
(Vila) "Alternate" truth?
(Dannnnn) But it's aimed at Arthur Conan Doyle and some conspiracy-minded stuff
(Dannnnn) so it's "here's a book on Druitt - but Druitt didn't do it, Doyle did"
(Vila) That's s bit far fetched, surely?
(Dannnnn) it's an odd book, I don't quite understand it
(kelly) i had no idea that's what it was about
(Dannnnn) or maybe it's that I do and it's just that odd
(Vila) I'd like to see the tortures that logic is put through to support that statement. Might make for good fiction, mind you.
(Dannnnn) well, he focuses on Druitt, puts in the cricket stuff and so forth, but then here and there offers up non-Druitt stuff that makes no sense either
(kelly) how does he get to Conan Doyle?
(Dannnnn) trying to offer up a "better suspect"
(kelly) lol
(Vila) Oh really!
(Vila) LOL!
(kelly) based on the choices, i vote Druitt!
(Dannnnn) lol, yeah
(Vila) Ever notice how a lot of the more oddball theories would have actually worked if they had been offered up as fiction?
(Dannnnn) so it becomes an anti-anti-suspect book roundaboutly
(kelly) my head hurts
* Vila passes Kelly some aspirin.
(Dannnnn) Conan Doyle and Sickert both make better movie villains than real ones
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(Vila) I agree.
(Vila) Welcome back, Chris.
(Dannnnn) if handled well those could be great
(ChrisGeorge) Sorry technical difficulties
(kelly) we solved it Chris: Conan Doyle dunnit
(ChrisGeorge) Have to leave in a few moments for some shopping anyway
(Vila) I found a Ripper fiction novel last year that worked quite well.
(ChrisGeorge) I could have told you it was Conan Doyle... he was a good goalie
(WTM) now there's enough new Maybrick stuff to make Paul Davis happy
(kelly) good goalie=ripper
(ChrisGeorge) Mmmmmmm..... maybe been going overboard on Maybrick to be frank
(WTM) well, Doyle is still the prime suspect in the Piltdown man hoax
(ChrisGeorge) True... how about Doyle for the Maybrick Diary as well then?
(WTM) blame Howard - he put me on commission
(kelly) it's not written well enough
(ChrisGeorge) The tin matchbox might be explained if he had access to the police list
(Vila) It's called "Jack Knife" by Virginia Baker. It could pass for a plausible Ripper theory if one left out the time travel elements of the novel.
(kelly) Conan Doyle was a writer --he would have made up some delicious new stuff
(ChrisGeorge) I still think there's a case to be made it that it could have been done as a gag
(Dannnnn) I was going to read Jack Knife sometime, haven't gotten around to it yet
(ChrisGeorge) Actually you are right, Kelly, not clever enough for Conan Doyle
(Vila) I enjoyed it, Dan.
(ChrisGeorge) And Doyle probably would have ensured the handwriting looked like Maybrick's
(kelly) And he probably wouldn't tear the pages out...if he messed up, I think he could buy another one!
(kelly) i don't guess we need to make the case against Conan Doyle as the diary author, though
(Vila) Perhaps we should be thankful that the hoaxers that we know about haven't been the most clever or creative of people.
(kelly) true
(kelly) but what if they have...bwahahaha
(Dannnnn) the bad ones trick too many people as it is
(Vila) Then we wouldn't realize that they were hoaxers.
(WTM) yes - if Mark Hoffman had been the forger, we would all be speaking diary by now
(ChrisGeorge) Right, Tim
(ChrisGeorge) There was one clever forger... the Maybrick Diary is primitive compared to his creations
(WTM) HE could have imitated the handwriting successfully enough
(ChrisGeorge) Anyway I had better run. Bye all
(Vila) Or if someone well versed in document forgery had been the author of the diary. Then no matter what tests were run... Wait a minute!
(Vila) Yes, we're far better off that most JTR-evidence hoaxers are somewhat less than expert.
(Vila) Bye, Chris!
(ChrisGeorge) See you next week I hope
(Vila) By the way, Lyn sends her respects to everyone.
(kelly) I'm off too
(kelly) loads to do
(Vila) Bye, Kelly. Thanh you for being here.
(kelly) I'll try to do it again next time
(ChrisGeorge) Say hello to Lyn for me, Vila. Bye
(Dannnnn) I've got work too, see you all later
* ChrisGeorge has left #JTRForums
(kelly) bye
(Vila) Bye Dan, tanks to you, too.
* kelly has quit IRC (Quit: kelly)
(Dannnnn) yeah, just post about the next one and I'll try to make it... it's interesting having Kelly in the same house chatting at the same time
(Vila) Where's a spell check when you need one?
(Vila) Same time next week?
(Dannnnn) that'll probably work
(Dannnnn) maybe even lure more people
(Vila) Suggest topics in that thread I made.
(Dannnnn) Ok, will do
(Dannnnn) bye
(Vila) I'll log them and add them to my list for future use.
(Vila) Bye!
* Dannnnn has quit IRC (Quit: Dannnnn)
(Vila) 1 and 3/4 hours, on topic!
(Vila) That is encouraging.
(Vila) What do you think, Tim? Should I hang around and wait for a second wave of chatters? The day is yet young.
* Looking up WTM user info...
(WTM) might as well
(WTM) Howard ought to be in
(Vila) The gang from the podcast ought to show up in a little while.
(WTM) hard to say
(WTM) but i need to go as well. I'll stay logged on though
(Vila) Well, some of them, in any case.
(Vila) OK, nice to have you here. You've helped a lot today.
* jmenges has joined #JTRForums
(Vila) Hi there.
* jmenges has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
* jmenges has joined #JTRForums
(jmenges) howdy
(jmenges) anybody out there?
* jmenges has quit IRC (Quit: Goodbye)
(Vila) I'm sitting right here! I was just looking at another screen...
(Vila) OK, I'm going to check my e-mail. If anyone comes in and leaves before I can click back over to this screen... Well, impatience is only human, I suppose.
"Behold! I have become the Blue Screen of Death, Destroyer of Hard Drives! Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
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Old February 11th, 2008, 04:25 PM   #2
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Thanks for that Vila. Now you're putting us on our guard, not to talk about others behind their backs Not that anyone would do that of course.
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Old February 12th, 2008, 08:11 PM   #3
Howard Brown
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Default Great Idea Dan J. Hollifield !


I hope people can see the potential for this sort of endeavor !!! I didn't realize it Danny, when you mentioned putting the log up to me before !!!

Now...members from ALL sites and even non-siters can discuss issues LIVE and have their views presented without the time between posts which diminish the flow of conversation !!!!

Dan...ahem...I wanna bear your children for this great idea.
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Old February 12th, 2008, 08:17 PM   #4
Howard Brown
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By the way...well done to all those in this chat...nice points made and I enjoyed it. I hope others will too.

Nice questions,Tim.
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Old February 12th, 2008, 09:04 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by How Brown View Post
Thank you. But it isn't something I came up with by myself. Back in the early days of Casebook:JTR Stephen used to ask for chat logs which he'd post as web pages of the site. I just continued the tradition.

I hope people can see the potential for this sort of endeavor !!! I didn't realize it Danny, when you mentioned putting the log up to me before !!!
Yeah, I noticed that. You were a little underenthused about putting the chat logs online.

Now...members from ALL sites and even non-siters can discuss issues LIVE and have their views presented without the time between posts which diminish the flow of conversation !!!!
Yeah, that's one of the things that I've always liked about chat room discussions. People start building off of each other's ideas. Often the group comes up with something that they wouldn't have thought of as individuals.

The only drawback is that someone involved in the chat needs to log it to a file. I log everything in the public chat, but never log private chats. After the chat ends, all I do is run the log file through a spell check, change some of the symbols that the log file uses so that they don't interfere with HTML codes in a post, then occasionally edit out some boring bits or places where a troll comes in from outside and tries to disrupt the chat.

Dan...ahem...I wanna bear your children for this great idea.
Down, boy... You'll start a nasty rumor. Not to mention getting me into trouble with my wife.

Anyway, thanks for the compliments, Howard.

"Behold! I have become the Blue Screen of Death, Destroyer of Hard Drives! Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
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Old February 12th, 2008, 09:15 PM   #6
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In the future, lets announce that the Chat will be displayed for those who wish to engage in this "roundtable" format. Anyone not wishing their part of the conversation mentioned on this thread should inform Dan or Tim before they get involved with it.

Its a decent idea,Dan...and it might get folks to discussing aspects others might not be aware of.
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Old February 12th, 2008, 09:46 PM   #7
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I agree completely. I'll see what I can do about creating an entry message for the chatroom. Something that tells everyone when they join the channel that they can expect the chat to be logged and the log to be posted.

"Behold! I have become the Blue Screen of Death, Destroyer of Hard Drives! Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
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Old February 15th, 2008, 09:30 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Vila View Post
I'll see what I can do about creating an entry message for the chatroom. Something that tells everyone when they join the channel that they can expect the chat to be logged and the log to be posted.
All right, I managed to do just that. There is now a warning that "chatlogs will be posted" that appears in two different ways when one enters the chat room. People who use the clickable link/Java applet here on the Forums will see the entry message inside the main chat window once they get in the chat room. People, like Admin Tim or myself, that use mIRC to access the chat room will see a message window from Chanserv that displays the entry message.

I wanted the entry message to be displayed inside the main chat window for everyone, but evidently it depends upon how one has their "Options/Preferences" set up in chat programs like mIRC, PIRCH, ChatZilla, etc. The Java applet, the way that most people here on the Forums go to the chat room, is already set up the right way.

"Behold! I have become the Blue Screen of Death, Destroyer of Hard Drives! Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
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Old February 16th, 2008, 07:30 AM   #9
Howard Brown
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Great work Vila...thanks very much.

I think that controlled chats such as this ( which you were the first to see as potentially valuable,I might add...) might produce some nice exchanges of ideas...again,all in "real time" as opposed to posts...

If I was a gazillionaire, I would attempt to set up a visual chat room....something that I think will eventually materialize in the future, if not within the Ripper community, then elsewhere, and on a regular basis.

Hey who knows...maybe Mike Covell will hit the Irish Sweepstakes and do it all by himself.
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Old February 16th, 2008, 07:43 AM   #10
Mike Covell
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You just reminded me How, I must get the lottery ticket before tonights draw!

I am still having difficulty getting into the chatroom as it requires Activex to run, my computer will not aloow me to download it from the chatroom so i have to find it elsewere, at a place that lists the publisher!

Any suggestions PM me
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