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Old September 12th, 2015, 04:56 PM   #11
Lynn Cates
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Hello Emanuele. Thanks.

Surety about ANYTHING concerning the WCM is at a premium. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC
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Old September 12th, 2015, 05:03 PM   #12
Lynn Cates
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Hello Emanuele. Thanks.

The pleasure is all mine.

Cheers.
LC
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Old September 12th, 2015, 06:27 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Linford View Post
... However, one problem with the Lawende sighting is Levy. He estimated the woman's height at 5 ft. I don't know if we have any other evidence of Eddowes's height, but the thing is, even if Levy was wrong about her height he nevertheless said that the man was about three inches taller than the woman. It's probably easier to estimate height differences than absolute heights. If the man was indeed about three inches taller than the woman, then if the man was Tumblety, it would make Eddowes a bit on the tall side.
Hi Robert.

Most of the press coverage after the murder give us an estimated height of 5ft for Eddowes, so as you say, if Levy was close in his estimation of the man being 3in taller, then this is still too short to be Tumblety.
If Tumblety was 55 then there's about 20+ years difference between him and the suspect.

I'm surprised to see Tumblety's name being offered as an ID for the Lawende suspect.
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The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
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Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.
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Old September 12th, 2015, 06:40 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Emanuele Cianto View Post

We have a man:
of about 35 years of age, (Tumblety was around 55 but we know he looked younger than his years - and remember age is the most difficult quality to determine, especially when during the night) 5 feet 7/8 inches tall, (Tumblety was around 5 feet 11 inches tall,
Hi Emanuele.
Welcome.

I think we all make an allowance for age estimates, a year or two either way, or physical height, an inch or two either way, but, to be honest I feel that if we are prepared to accept such a height & age discrepancy in this case then doesn't it open the door to dismissing every published suspect description?
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The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
" observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.
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Old September 13th, 2015, 10:01 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Emanuele Cianto View Post
Hi Wickerman,

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
I was just saying Lawende saw a man whom he took just a short look at. He could be wrong of about 10 cm (4 inches)... he saw the couple when it was very dark and rainy... I'm just saying everyone can be wrong. Although Levy's statement contradicts my theory.

Yr,
Em
Hi Emanuele.

Did you read where Swanson voiced his caution about Lawende's sighting, hinting that Lawende may not have seen Eddowes after all?
That the two people seen by Lawende, Levy & Harris may have been some other couple.
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The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
" observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.
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Old September 13th, 2015, 05:50 PM   #16
Anna Morris
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If the couple seen by Lewende, Levy and Harris was not Catherine and a man, then we come to one of those impasses that keep the case a mystery.

If it wasn't Eddowes, the man may not have been the Ripper. If he wasn't the Ripper, what other meaning can we make of what Levy said?

Or did Levy see a violent man he knew, with a woman, and thus Levy was glad not to be going home alone? Perhaps the man was a thug who robbed people? Perhaps the woman was a pickpocket? Perhaps the couple together robbed and picked pockets? Levy allegedly said, "when characters [plural*] like that...". There were cases like that in the area where men and women worked together to rob.

(* In English as you know Emanuele, our plurals are not as well defined as they are in Italian. We usually just add an "s" for a plural and sometimes such things are incorrectly recorded or reported. We do not routinely change the word to the extent found in Italian. I have always wondered if Levy was concerned about the man AND woman in the couple or if he said "a character" which I would take to be the man only. If the plural usage meant he was concerned about both people, what does that tell us about the couple? What if it was Kate and the Ripper? What would this tell us about her?)

If it wasn't Eddowes and a man, who was it? Lewende felt somewhat positive about Eddowes' clothes and that is why I made the comment about the flounced skirt which I believe would have been somewhat different from other common skirts of the time.

Some writers pull together odd bits of evidence, develop a suspect and write whole books yet the case remains an unsolved mystery. That's why I seldom push any of my opinions. For every honest, researched opinion there is a reason why it isn't so.

IF Levy saw Eddowes and a man he knew, it means one thing. If the couple had nothing to do with the murder, it means less or nothing at all. Or we could be creative and guess Levy identified a criminal man who was chatting up an unknown woman, it didn't work out, and the man soon thereafter took up with Kate. Or Kate and Jack were not there for Levy to see them. The possibilities are endless.

PS: there was said to be an unidentified couple seen in the vicinity near that time. In the fruit market or something, or an orange seller saw them.
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Last edited by Anna Morris; September 13th, 2015 at 05:58 PM. Reason: typo + addition
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Old September 13th, 2015, 06:33 PM   #17
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Emanuele: One of the best articles about the complexities of Ripperology is Don Souden's 'The Murder in Cartin's Court', available at Casebook. I'll try to attach a link here.

I was refreshing my knowledge of Don's work and just re-read this one which is quite impressive.

(I will now probably mess up an attachment, but here it goes....)

I don't think anything attached because I'm not too good with computers. Oh well, you know where to look it up.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 02:37 PM   #18
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My opinion is that different investigators had different favourite suspects that were developed by individuals in the force. I haven't spent a lot of time considering Tumblety but think he came to attention because he had anatomical specimens in his possession, was reputed to have offered money for womens' uteri and was said to hate women in general. Beyond that he was eccentric and not an Englishman. I am sure there was a deep hope that Jack wasn't an Englishman.

Keep in mind there were different agencies and jurisdictions ranging from Scotland Yard to local police in the area. Others here can sort out this particular subject better than me.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 04:38 PM   #19
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At it's simplest I think there was a list of likely suspects. With forensics almost nil in those days these suspects may have looked extremely guilty though there was not enough actual evidence to convict. I think the authorities decided or agreed together to neutralize as many as possible. Asylums for the lunatics. Prison or execution (Bury) for the criminal element. Make sure foreigners like Tumblety get out of England and stay out. In my opinion.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 12:33 PM   #20
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There is something I have never seen considered. Lewende testified, "She had her hand on his chest." There was some sort of closeness between the man and woman. If a taller than normal man even bent his neck a very little bit, the better to be close to the woman's face, he would appear much shorter than he might be. He could have slightly bent his knees for the same purpose.

Might he have just kissed her or was he thinking about kissing her? How does a man who is taller than a woman accommodate her height in order to intimately converse or kiss? Considering this scenario, how can we reconsider the veracity of an estimate of height?

(I have always pictured it that the man was leaning back against a wall, but I don't find that in the source I am using. (Evans and Skinner) Looks like the couple was standing together at the corner. If he was leaning against a wall that would also very much affect his appearance of height I think.)
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