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Old September 12th, 2015, 04:34 PM   #1
Emanuele Cianto
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Post About The Batty Street Lodger?

Hi all,

This is from Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Mrs. Kuer's Lodger by Gavin Bromley:

[While the Daily News and Evening News seemed to believe the incident was now explained, the Irish Times continued in the other direction, though expressing some doubt in the public’s faith in the optimism seemingly shown by the police:

"The “bloody shirt,” having long figured as a STANDARD OF AMERICAN PARTY WARFARE, is likely to appear in this community as a flag of justice. For it is declared that the police are in possession of a most important clue to the Whitechapel assassin. This clue is a shirt saturated with blood, and supposed from circumstances needless to narrate to have been worn by the murderer when he killed his two latest victims. Great importance, it seems, is attached by the experts of the Criminal Investigation Department to this ensanguined garment, and the resources of the institution are at present directed to the discovery of the wearer. It must be said that the public do not share the great expectations of the authorities."] - Emphasys added -

Does the article state the Lodger's garment was an American Civil War garment? - if so maybe the man would be an American.
Thank you all,

Emanuele
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Old September 12th, 2015, 04:58 PM   #2
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Hello Emanuele. Have you had a look at Tom Wescott's work in this area?

Cheers.
LC
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Old September 12th, 2015, 05:02 PM   #3
Anna Morris
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Emanuele: That is a new article to me. I'll try to look that up after awhile because it means nothing to me. However my understanding of this paragraph is that that comment is just a reporter making the article more interesting.

Bloody shirts happen. Nose bleeds, fights, warfare, murders, suicides, medical work... You name it. I don't see how a certain bloody shirt could mean anything beyond what it is.

Like I say I will look it up, but I have never heard of any of this before. I also take the reference to "party" to mean our political parties, not the Civil War.
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Old September 12th, 2015, 05:10 PM   #4
Emanuele Cianto
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Hi both,

Lynn no, I didn't, but now I surely will.

Anna,
the man who left this bloody garment in the Batty Street lodging house returned home in the first hours of the morning of the Double Murder and left the house the following day. He never returned. Police took the story seriously.

However, I cited the article in my previous post.
Again thank you.

Yr,
Emanuele
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Old September 12th, 2015, 05:38 PM   #5
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Emanuele: I am familiar with the bloody shirt in the Ripper investigation, but not the same in American politics. Here attached is what I found about the bloody shirt and our politics, from Wikipedia.

Therefore my opinion on your first question, if the comment in the newspaper implicated an American, I would say no. What I think the reporter was saying is that the bloody shirt can be a symbol, the author assumes it is a big thing in "American Party warfare", whatever he means by that. The symbolism may go back to Julius Caesar according to Wiki. Perhaps the author means the bloody shirt found at the time would be a garment to avenge the injustice of the murders. I think it is poorly written and distracting. I do not believe the writer is pointing to an American.
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Old September 13th, 2015, 06:06 AM   #6
Emanuele Cianto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna Morris View Post
Emanuele: I am familiar with the bloody shirt in the Ripper investigation, but not the same in American politics. Here attached is what I found about the bloody shirt and our politics, from Wikipedia.

Therefore my opinion on your first question, if the comment in the newspaper implicated an American, I would say no. What I think the reporter was saying is that the bloody shirt can be a symbol, the author assumes it is a big thing in "American Party warfare", whatever he means by that. The symbolism may go back to Julius Caesar according to Wiki. Perhaps the author means the bloody shirt found at the time would be a garment to avenge the injustice of the murders. I think it is poorly written and distracting. I do not believe the writer is pointing to an American.
Hi Anna,
Thank you for your information!

Yr,
Em
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Old September 15th, 2015, 02:06 PM   #7
Emanuele Cianto
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Hi all,

This is from "Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Mrs Kuer's Lodger" by Gavin Bromley:

[Man in the Red Lion story

In light of the Batty Street lodger story the following, reported on 1st October, is possibly of some interest.

On Saturday night last, about half-past ten o’clock, a man entered the bar of the “Red Lion” public-house, in Batty-street, Commercial-road, and calling for half a pint of beer, plunged at once into a conversation with the landlord and the customers present about the murders in Hanbury-street and Buck’s-row. He declared that he knew the man who committed them very well, that more would take place yet, and there would be another before the morning. The landlord observed that he thought he was talking very foolishly, and that as he seemed to know so much about the man who did them, perhaps he was the man himself. The man, who had indulged in a good deal more talk of a suspicious nature, upon this hastily put down a penny for his beer and decamped without another word. Information was given to the police of the above facts after the murders of Sunday morning, and they are now anxiously looking for the man, who is thus described:-Height about 5ft. 8in., dark hair, dark moustache of stubbly growth, dark complexion, smoothly shaven chin and cheeks, and dark blue eyes. The man wore a dark single-breasted coat and waistcoat, black corduroy trousers the worse for wear, a felt hat with a narrow brim, and had a comforter round his neck. He had no jewellery, and looked like a common man cleaned up for the evening. The landlord took particular notice of him, and would know him again among a thousand. Mrs. Warwick, of 19, Batty-street, who was also in the house at the time getting her supper beer, says she could also identify him, and so could, it is said, others who were present in the bar at the time. Batty-street is the next street eastward to Berner-street, and is the street in which Lipski’s crime was committed.]

Does anyone know what does it mean having a moustache of "stubbly growth"? Does it mean the moustache was a big one? And then: could this man be Tumblety? Remember the "Good Doctor" had blue eyes.

Thank you all.

Regards,
Em
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Old September 16th, 2015, 03:36 AM   #8
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Hello Emanuele. "Stubbly" would indicate rather short, I should think.

Tumblety? Height is a bit off.

Cheers.
LC
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Old September 16th, 2015, 04:43 AM   #9
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This is well worth a read. You can grab a copy for next to nothing on amazon or ebay. It provides a great background to a (in 1995) totally forgotten contemporary suspect. Plenty of info about Batty St & also sets the Whitechapel murders against the backdrop of the Fenian troubles in late 19th century London.

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Old September 16th, 2015, 11:29 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuele Cianto View Post
Hi all,

This is from "Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Mrs Kuer's Lodger" by Gavin Bromley:

[Man in the Red Lion story

In light of the Batty Street lodger story the following, reported on 1st October, is possibly of some interest.

On Saturday night last, about half-past ten o’clock, a man entered the bar of the “Red Lion” public-house, in Batty-street, Commercial-road, and calling for half a pint of beer, plunged at once into a conversation with the landlord and the customers present about the murders in Hanbury-street and Buck’s-row. He declared that he knew the man who committed them very well, that more would take place yet, and there would be another before the morning. The landlord observed that he thought he was talking very foolishly, and that as he seemed to know so much about the man who did them, perhaps he was the man himself. The man, who had indulged in a good deal more talk of a suspicious nature, upon this hastily put down a penny for his beer and decamped without another word. Information was given to the police of the above facts after the murders of Sunday morning, and they are now anxiously looking for the man, who is thus described:-Height about 5ft. 8in., dark hair, dark moustache of stubbly growth, dark complexion, smoothly shaven chin and cheeks, and dark blue eyes. The man wore a dark single-breasted coat and waistcoat, black corduroy trousers the worse for wear, a felt hat with a narrow brim, and had a comforter round his neck. He had no jewellery, and looked like a common man cleaned up for the evening. The landlord took particular notice of him, and would know him again among a thousand. Mrs. Warwick, of 19, Batty-street, who was also in the house at the time getting her supper beer, says she could also identify him, and so could, it is said, others who were present in the bar at the time. Batty-street is the next street eastward to Berner-street, and is the street in which Lipski’s crime was committed.]

Does anyone know what does it mean having a moustache of "stubbly growth"? Does it mean the moustache was a big one? And then: could this man be Tumblety? Remember the "Good Doctor" had blue eyes.

Thank you all.

Regards,
Em [Emphasis added. CTG]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Cates View Post
Hello Emanuele. "Stubbly" would indicate rather short, I should think.

Tumblety? Height is a bit off.

Cheers.
LC



More a barely perceptible moustache, in other words, rather than a fully grown one.
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