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Mary Kelly Not just killed, but destroyed, and more mystery than you can shake a stick at.

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Old September 29th, 2015, 05:13 PM   #1
Amy Ince
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Default John Cooney

Hi All,

I have recently been reading a lot of articles on JTR. I have been specifically interested in Mary Jane Kelly as she is almost as big a mystery as Jack the Ripper!

In almost all of the articles I have read, the names Cooney or MCcarthy seem to crop up in one way or another. I have done a little research on John Cooney, and I'm pretty sure his parents were born in Limerick. I have also read somewhere that he was related to Marie Loyd the music hall performer. Wasn't one of Mary Jane Kelly's relatives described as working in the theatre? Is there any chance that Mary could be a cousin or relative of Cooney's?

Are there any threads related to this anywhere that I could read? I have searched the word Cooney but the threads I found were not concerned with this.

Thanks
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Old September 29th, 2015, 05:20 PM   #2
Howard Brown
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Dear Amy:

I'm going to rename the thread, John Cooney, and put it in the Mary Kelly Forum.
Good idea for a thread, Amy....thanks.
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Old September 30th, 2015, 05:02 AM   #3
Amy Ince
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Cheers Howard,

This is a more appropriate place
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Old September 30th, 2015, 06:02 AM   #4
Jeff Leahy
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Having done a little research recently on what little is known about Mary Kelly, we concluded that there were two possible routes for Kelly travelling from Limerick to London

One would go north Wales, Liverpool , manchester London

But the more probable route would go south. Limerick to Fishguard to Carmarthen in southern wales. Here there were a number of Iron Works, so an irish catholic community in Carmarthen might make sense. Also had some Military connections.

But the southern route would also tie with the Cardiff story, where she fell into prostitution with a cousin.

Carmarthen has strong choir and singing traditions.

So fishguard, Carmarthen , Cardiff and London the Southern route

I'm as yet to be convinced about the recent MJK claims made by an author, but can recommend Jonathon's recent podcast

Good luck with your search

Yours Jeff
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Old September 30th, 2015, 06:25 AM   #5
Amy Ince
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Thank you Jeff,

All very interesting!

Amy
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Old September 30th, 2015, 06:37 AM   #6
Jeff Leahy
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Just to add that it is known MJK had a brother in the Scots guards called 'Jonto'

This kind of abbreviation is common in Carmarthen Yanto and Guto (As in Guy Fawkes, GEE TOE)

Having done a lot of research on the Hammersmith murders nearly all the victims went by assumed names, as had been the long tradition in prostitution

So the most probable explanation for MJK is that it is not her real name..

So the true name might lay or be discovered from her brothers military records on which I believe are a number of threads. I can recommend Neil Sheldons book on the subject. Somewhere if have an interesting book by Chris Scott

Good Luck

Yours Jeff
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Old September 30th, 2015, 06:47 AM   #7
Amy Ince
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You're very helpful!

I'll search for the military record threads as they sound interesting

I've come across Chris Scott quite a bit, which is what lead me here in the first place!

Thanks again

Amy
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Old September 30th, 2015, 11:37 PM   #8
Anna Morris
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Good ideas, Amy. I'm with you, finding MJK's background is more interesting and more important than finding out who was JtR.

I have tried to figure out a connexion for Mary and a performer and have been reading some books on line about Marie Lloyd, etc. No luck yet.

Jeff mentioned her brother Johnto and the Scots Guard. I noted something in a version of what Joe Barnett had to say about Mary's brother and I wonder if that subject has been over complicated with time. Researchers are looking for a Henry (Kelly) nicknamed Johnto, and why would a Henry be a Johnto? I don't have access to the complete list from the Scots Guard so can't really check out my latest theory.

Barnett gave a kind of run-down of her family, kind of a list. Sorry I don't have the exact quote right now but I could find it. It was like, Mary had a sister who travelled and sold things, a brother was in the army, one was named Henry, there were six at home. I actually don't think Henry HAS to be the brother in the Guard. Perhaps it should be, brother Johnto (John?) was in the Guard and another brother was named Henry... IMO
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Old October 2nd, 2015, 11:41 AM   #9
Amy Ince
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Hi Anna,

Thanks, I completely agree with you!

I read about the Maria Loyd/McCarthy/Cooney connection in an article about the pubs in the East End and another about the Cooney's lodging house.

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/C..._Lodging_House

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-pubsv.html

You've probably read them, but I've posted the links just in case

Since Jeff's post, I have read the threads related to her brother and the Scots guard. But I feel if he were really in the Scot's Guards someone would have found him by now or at least possible candidates. Further to this, if she did have a brother in the army Mary may not have known which part of the army he belonged to as I'm sure Barnett also stated at the inquest that she had six brothers living in London, but he did not offer a profession for any of these. Why would she have known such detail about one brother?

The six brothers in London throws doubt on the wales connection for me too. Surely at least one of six brothers, or her sister, would have made a home and a life for themselves in Wales if they had spent the best part of their childhood there?

Mary could have been an only child who lived with her parents in Wales. Its a little hard to believe that she had six brothers living in London and neither they nor their wives or family said one word to the press! Maybe she just told Barnett this to keep him on his toes, to make him think twice about hurting her when she has six brothers in the vicinity.

Any way, Just some thoughts

Also Here are some census link's for John Cooney, (I hope they are correct! I'm not very good at searching on Ancestry).

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...iv=1&ml_rpos=1
search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1871&indiv=try&h=12796428


Thanks,

Amy
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Old October 2nd, 2015, 12:53 PM   #10
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Amy: Thanks for the links. I have not seen all of them.

Mary's youngest siblings could have been children yet. I did some research recently and suggested a Romany (Gypsy) background for Mary. It is posted here somewhere. Her story would make sense if that was so, but of course it cannot be proved.

I think the key is the name Marie Jeanette. I truly believe her family was found and known to authorities. Barnett is quoted somewhere as saying she was christened with that name. It doesn't make sense that it was her Frenchified brothel name. Barnett would surely know if it was and I don't think he would have said that was the name with which she was Christened.

Plus nobody else seemed to know her by that name. Mary seemed to gild the lily a bit with her female friends such as Mrs. Felix. To them she indicated she had the life of a lady who rode in a carriage, when she was at the brothel. If she had a fancy name for that life, why didn't they know it? They knew her only as Mary Jane.

I have recently noted that Isle of Man records might be interesting for hunting MJK. It's right there between Ireland, Wales and England. The names seem to have a touch of French or Latin, so I wonder about Roman Catholic presence. I can look that up.

Jennet(t) is a surname especially in Wales. As a forename it does not always seem to mean Janet or Jeanette; sometimes it is the surname as a middle name I think. I have looked a great deal for Marie or Mary Jennetts. In Scotland there is a surname McJennett. Debra A. provided a name from the Scots Guard of one William McJennett. Not much information on him in other sources. Looks like he was a soldier at least through the 1891 census. May have gotten married.

Barnett seemed to know the movement of the Scots Guard troops in the summer of 1888. That is a big reason why people believe Mary had a brother in the unit.

If we look at everything relayed by Mary to friends, we don't really catch her in any big lies that we know of. If most of it looks true, might it all be true? If some little item in the biography of one soldier pointed the way, the story might be broken open IMO.
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