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Old May 16th, 2011, 01:21 PM   #11
Paul Butler
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Excellent post Livia.

Crippen could have chosen to take Ethel down with him, but instead he took the whole thing upon himself, thus saving her bacon.

Regards.

Paul
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Old May 17th, 2011, 12:45 AM   #12
Adam Went
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Livia:

Cora's social "adventures" have been well documented in the past - there's no denying that she regularly acted in a way which was socially unacceptable for the time and also an embarrassment for Crippen. This wasn't new to 1910, it had been going on for years.....so why would Crippen decide to kill her just at the point that it was evident that she would be leaving and he could permanently be with Le Neve?

Did you know that the captain who dobbed in Crippen and Le Neve, Henry Kendall, was captain of the Empress Of Ireland 4 years later when she collided with the Storstad and sank, killing well over 1,000 people? Karma, anyone?

Cora could well have been heard from again - but no longer as Cora Crippen. The letter, hoax or not, does exist and it would be interesting to know why anybody would want to hoax a letter like that from the US. As I said in the other thread, there's just too many parts of this case that don't add up for it to simply be a coincidence....

And as I also said, let's please try and keep the Crippen discussion, if it must go on, to one thread....

Cheers,
Adam.
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Old May 17th, 2011, 02:40 AM   #13
George Lorton
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Well I think somebody who was nuts or really ornery wrote that supposed letter from Cora to Crippen. Shoot for all we know it was one of Crippen's friends or family trying to save his bacon.
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Old May 22nd, 2011, 01:37 PM   #14
Livia Trivia
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The people the Crippens socialized with were retired show
people. Their standards of morality were far more lax than
most everyone else's, then and now. Anyway, Crippen's
repeated business failures and his long term affair with
Le Neve were equally socially embarrassing, no? Cora had
been salting away money under the name Belle Elmore
for years. She accumulated almost a thousand pounds
in various accounts. She applied for withdrawal from
the Charing Cross Bank, the largest of these accounts.
Meanwhile, Crippen had less than two hundred pounds
to his name, a failing business and a greedy mistress
on his hands. He wanted Cora gone alright, just not
with the marital assets or a right to claim 20% of any
of his future earnings.

Yes, I knew that, but some kind of Neptunian Karma?
Seriously? What did the other thousand casualties do
to deserve death by drowning? As a theory, that would
be laughable if it weren't tragic, Adam. But if we're
applying the rules of karma here, what did Crippen
do to deserve hanging?

But Cora was never heard from again, and you have
not one bit of evidence that she was, under any name,
not by her friends and not by her family, with whom she
corresponded frequently. In fact, I read a few newspaper
articles about the letter received by her family on April 7th,
written by Crippen telling them of her death in the States.
They were shocked and perplexed by the contents of this
letter since the family had received a letter weeks
prior to the 7th from Cora herself, telling them she was
in fine health but with no mention of any plans to travel to
the States. Apparently, Crippen was unaware Cora had
written to them.

But speaking of letters (and to return to the subject of
Le Neve), I read on www.drcrippen.co.uk that the letter
delivered by Le Neve on February 2nd or 3rd, telling the
Ladies Guild of Cora's resignation and allegedly written
by Cora (but obviously not in her handwriting) was signed
Belle Ellmore. Cora had used this stage name for years, and
it's hard to believe that Crippen would not have been aware
that Elmore was spelled with only one "L", so it begs the question,
who wrote it?

At the same site, there's a more detailed synopsis of
Le Neve's trial than is available at the Old Bailey site.
The presecutor makes much of Le Neve's landlady's
statement that she was nervously prostrate and in a
state of horror somewhere towards the end of January,
but seems to have considerably cheered up by
February 1st. Le Neve's defense makes much of the fact
that the landlady was vague as to the actual date of this
incident. But no matter which side you come down on, it
makes for interesting reading.

Liv
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Old July 10th, 2011, 03:46 AM   #15
George Lorton
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Great research Livia! I gotta say you are a crack Crippenologist, I have found all your posts on Crippen very enlightening and wanted to say a quick word of thanks to you and Deb plus Paul, Adam too for helping dispel all the rumors and false leads. =-)
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Old July 10th, 2011, 04:02 AM   #16
George Lorton
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Hi Deb,

I think Ethel did stay the night. just gut instinct but my gut tells me she did and while she might not of helped Crippen with the murder I think she is guilty of looking the other way.

Ethel Le Neve strikes me as a passive person as I think of her personality. Not a bad person but not following the straight and narrow either.

All,

Regarding Crippen and children, I feel that Crippen had an aversion to them. His first wife dies while pregnant and Cora couldn't have any supposedly because of an operation which Crippen might of given her?

Le Neve had a Miscarriage/abortion and I wonder if that rendered her sterile as there is no record of her having children leading me to believe that Crippen gave her the abortion and rendered her sterile at the same time so he wouldn't have any more children.

Crippen had a son though from his first wife but he had the most distant relationship with Crippen Jr from the beginning what I was able to dig up.

Anyways I always felt there was something more to Crippen's regard to children and how the threat of having them effected his relationship with women. Just food for thought. Crippen is such a complex character he is hard to flesh out so I thought I would share this assumption or theory and see what you all thought of it.
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Old July 10th, 2011, 06:42 AM   #17
SPE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Lorton View Post
...
...
Le Neve had a Miscarriage/abortion and I wonder if that rendered her sterile as there is no record of her having children leading me to believe that Crippen gave her the abortion and rendered her sterile at the same time so he wouldn't have any more children.
...
But Ethel Neve married one Stanley Smith after her return to England in 1914. They had a son and daughter together and these children were tracked down a few years back by Jonathan Goodman who the did a radio interview with them.
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Old July 10th, 2011, 06:46 AM   #18
m_w_r
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Lorton View Post
Le Neve had a Miscarriage/abortion and I wonder if that rendered her sterile as there is no record of her having children leading me to believe that Crippen gave her the abortion and rendered her sterile at the same time so he wouldn't have any more children.
Hi George,

Ethel Neave / le Neve / Harvey had two children by her later marriage to Stanley Smith, so, if Crippen had planned to sterilise her, as you speculate, he didn't manage it.

She died in 1967 without mentioning to her children that she had once been one of the most notorious women in the world, and the story goes that, when they found out later, they were quite astonished. She'd seen out her final years grumpy and toothless - quite a remove from the glamour of 1910.

Regards,

Mark
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Old July 10th, 2011, 08:46 AM   #19
George Hutchinson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Livia Trivia View Post
The people the Crippens socialized with were retired show people. Their standards of morality were far more lax than most everyone else's, then and now.
What a bizarre thing to say, and not a little offensive.

PHILIP
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Old August 8th, 2011, 11:50 PM   #20
George Lorton
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m_w_r and SPE,

I knew Ethel married but I did not know that she had kids when I wrote that post. Still I think Crippen did not want kids as he only had one, who he did not raise.

Plus the points I made in my first post regarding the strange death of Charlotte Crippen and Cora not even having children. Still thanks for the information. Crippen did not want or like kids.
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